Things that don't add up the TNG edition

[Farscape One]

Maybe it's a sweep used for really high buildups of baryons that would eventually turn into harmful radiation.

What I've always wondered is how long they've known about these particles building up at warp. In other words, was this known during STAR TREK, or even ENTERPRISE? (In universe, obviously not the producers of TOS.)

 

[Timo]

Maybe it's a sweep used for really high buildups of baryons that would eventually turn into harmful radiation.

Aka a thick layer of dust or grime? Don't see those causing cancer in my kitchen...

What I've always wondered is how long they've known about these particles building up at warp. In other words, was this known during STAR TREK, or even ENTERPRISE? (In universe, obviously not the producers of TOS.)

ENT makes it sound as if their warp is the exact same as in TNG, even if the terminology briefly changes for TOS. Perhaps Earth basically purchased the whole package from Vulcans, complete with the mandatory warnings and instructions, and then wrote "Cochrane" over it with a thick pen? If not, there might have been early mishaps and failures to appreciate dangers.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Farscape One]

Harry Kim did mention asking for baryon sweeps of his dorm room at Starfleet Academy. I think it was "ASHES TO ASHES" he said that.

Maybe those sweeps have a wide variety of uses.

 

[Nakita Akita]

The biggest thing that doesn't add up is that the first time everyone watched what ever,
They thought it was awsome, so cool and exciting.
30 years and 362 times watching each episode later, everyone's So much an expert
And a complainer.

 

[Timo]

...To the contrary, that's the very definition of "adding up".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Also, attacking non-military targets is generally not of much strategic benefit. The only reason to attack civilians is to create fear.

Klingons, at least modern Klingons prefer enemies who fight back.

 

[Tenacity]

Also, attacking non-military targets is generally not of much strategic benefit.

Deprives the enemy government of inferstructure. The enemy government has to divert assets from their military to keeping their economy operating. Places pressure on the enemy government to surrender, or come to terms.

 

[Timo]

Also, it might be a fun exercise to terror-bomb Klingon planets. A German/British city is not going to denounce Hitler's/Churchill's reign just because it gets terrorized from the sky. But a Klingon planet in the middle of empty space, lightyears away from QonoS and full of proud Klingon warriors, just might switch sides for the sheer fighting challenge of it! That is, they may decide that regardless of who's winning in the big picture, their own chances of actively fighting and beating somebody go radically up if it's the Seat of the Emperor they oppose rather than these Starfleet orbital bombers with their utter space superiority. Especially if it's not their House in power right then (although plunging a sword through that annoying great-uncle might also make the fight worth their while).

However, I don't think we have ever heard of terror-bombing in Trek. In Burnham's War, the Klingons bombed UFP worlds in order to totally exterminate the inhabitants. Getting rid of the population leaves nobody to do the fearing, but it nicely eliminates those people from the ranks of the enemy (would a Klingon even understand the word "civilian"?) and frees up the planet for the new owners. That atmospheric scorching tactic of "The War Within" and "The Chase" sounded really nifty in that sense.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Deprives the enemy government of inferstructure. The enemy government has to divert assets from their military to keeping their economy operating. Places pressure on the enemy government to surrender, or come to terms.

Which is much smaller an effect for far greater cost than attacking armies or supply lines. Don’t make me quote Sun Tzu on you.

@Timo

House of Quark proves, at least, they find no honor in slaughtering the weak and pathetic. At least in the 24th century.

Do they call it Burnham’s War in the actual show? She got blamed on the show but as the audience we know it was happening anyway and if anything, she might have stopped it if she hadn’t been stopped from firing first.

 

[Timo]

I doubt anybody could ever bet their lives on "Klingon honor": it's whatever the Klingons decide it is at any given instance, and whatever its role and purpose, it's not to protect the innocent or the weak!

No, nobody actually calls it Burnham's War but me. Yet everybody in-universe did blame Burnham. That is, if by everybody we mean three crazy criminals and Harry Mudd. And Mudd probably wasn't being honest about that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nightdiamond]

This one has to do with a TNG movie. Some dates and claims don't add up.

Star Trek Insurrection. About the Federation moving a colony of defenseless people from a planet (for their "safety") in order to study the rings around that planet because it had some type of value.

Up until a certain point in the movie, it looked as if the planet was in Federation space or that the planet belonged to them. Then one character gives one simple piece of information that changes everything.

The Baku settled on the planet in the mid 21st century. Earth was barley warp capable then, and the Federation wasn't founded until about 100 years later. In short, the Baku settled on the planet 100 years before the Federation even existed.

If it can't be explained, then it looks like the Federation simply decided to claim the planet so they could
get access to the rings, and that smacks of colonialism.

However, I don't think we have ever heard of terror-bombing in Trek.

It makes you wonder why other aliens at war with the Federation were so afraid of their 'destruction' when the Federation would never go that far. I'm not sure the Federation even believes in seizing territory. At worst they would be forced to surrender and discuss peace terms.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Also, it might be a fun exercise to terror-bomb Klingon planets. A German/British city is not going to denounce Hitler's/Churchill's reign just because it gets terrorized from the sky. But a Klingon planet in the middle of empty space, lightyears away from QonoS and full of proud Klingon warriors, just might switch sides for the sheer fighting challenge of it! That is, they may decide that regardless of who's winning in the big picture, their own chances of actively fighting and beating somebody go radically up if it's the Seat of the Emperor they oppose rather than these Starfleet orbital bombers with their utter space superiority. Especially if it's not their House in power right then (although plunging a sword through that annoying great-uncle might also make the fight worth their while).

However, I don't think we have ever heard of terror-bombing in Trek. In Burnham's War, the Klingons bombed UFP worlds in order to totally exterminate the inhabitants. Getting rid of the population leaves nobody to do the fearing, but it nicely eliminates those people from the ranks of the enemy (would a Klingon even understand the word "civilian"?) and frees up the planet for the new owners. That atmospheric scorching tactic of "The War Within" and "The Chase" sounded really nifty in that sense.

Timo Saloniemi

Didn't the Klingons do a terrorist bombing in TNG in Some episode where the Klingons came to set up a new government or office and they inserted an explosive device in the skin of one of the delegates?

Sorry I can't recall more of it. It sounds like a Worf episode and I tend to not pay very much attention to Worf or Klingon episodes

 

[Timo]

No, that wasn't a terrorist bombing at all, but a simple (or complex) assassination attempt, from TNG "Reunion" where Gowron and Duras compete for power. We never quite learn which one of them did that: the bomb with Romulan components was in the arm of a henchman to Duras, the known Romulan sympathizer, but since the evidence was so damning and Gowron ultimately won the contest, we may just as well suspect he framed Duras. Perhaps he bribed the henchman, perhaps he injected that bomb without the henchman even noticing.

Klingons in general find faceless killings such as poisoning distasteful. But suicide bombing is probably fine and brave and highly honorable. Then again, attacking under cloak is also fine... Although of course the cloak is dropped before firing, which may be because of the demands of honor or because of a technological shortcoming amounting to same.

This one has to do with a TNG movie. Some dates and claims don't add up. Star Trek Insurrection. [..] The Baku settled on the planet in the mid 21st century. Earth was barley warp capable then, and the Federation wasn't founded until about 100 years later. In short, the Baku settled on the planet 100 years before the Federation even existed.

But all of the members of the future Federation already existed at that point, and many were active starfarers. Quite possibly one of them owned the real estate on which the Ba'ku ended up squatting, and the ownership then moved on to the Federation.

We don't know if this was the case. We also don't learn if and when the Ba'ku realized they were illegally squatting. All sorts of options are open for interpreting this, then.

What doesn't easily add up there is the way the various players were deceived about the reality of the situation. The Son'a of course knew the Ba'ku were no primitives in need of Prime Directive "protection", that is, denial of say in their own affairs. The cover story of the joint operation in turn was that they indeed were primitive natives, or so it sounded like. But the team studying the place must have realized that a single iron age village cannot be native - iron age villages require an extended infrastructure in order to "naturally" exist. So Dougherty's folks must have realized the Ba'ku were colonists, regardless of whether those had honestly forgotten all about their advanced past or whether they were just slumming it out below their true level of civilization. Why not come clean about that colonial nature, which would then make explicit the squatting issue and erase the rights of the Ba'ku? Why claim to the UFP Council that the team was studying natives? Or was that claim only to outsiders like Picard? Even if so, why tell the lie when the truth would have carried benefits?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

ENT makes it sound as if their warp is the exact same as in TNG, even if the terminology briefly changes for TOS. Perhaps Earth basically purchased the whole package from Vulcans, complete with the mandatory warnings and instructions, and then wrote "Cochrane" over it with a thick pen? If not, there might have been early mishaps and failures to appreciate dangers.

Timo Saloniemi

They used a sharpie....

 

[diankra]

Of course the cloak is dropped before firing, which may be because of the demands of honor or because of a technological shortcoming amounting to same.

Timo Saloniemi

Or both: the Klingons accept that little problem because decloaking just before firing assuages their conscience, by letting them tell themselves it wasn't a sneak attack, not really, the enemy had half a second of warning...

 

[Timo]

Much the same as with the submarines of the World Wars, which only ever fought effectively on the surface and therefore dodged some of the "sneak attack" stigma.

Although I don't think the Klingons have a stigma against surprising the enemy. Slitting the throats of sleeping foes is fine, and just an example of great warrior skills (and lack thereof on the stupid enemy that lets this happen to him). Sabotage and ambush are often practiced, too. And while our heroes in "Way of the Warrior" are bitter about facing the possibility of a Klingon cloaked ambush in a debris field because they believe war erodes honor standards (the famous "nothing is more honorable than victory" quote), I gather that's just their inexpert view...

Surprise a superior foe, but reveal yourself to a manageable opponent, and you maximize your own heroism - in the first situation, by maximizing your kill tally and survival odds, in the second, by playing up the bravado.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

What doesn't easily add up there is the way the various players were deceived about the reality of the situation. The Son'a of course knew the Ba'ku were no primitives in need of Prime Directive "protection", that is, denial of say in their own affairs. The cover story of the joint operation in turn was that they indeed were primitive natives, or so it sounded like. But the team studying the place must have realized that a single iron age village cannot be native - iron age villages require an extended infrastructure in order to "naturally" exist. So Dougherty's folks must have realized the Ba'ku were colonists, regardless of whether those had honestly forgotten all about their advanced past or whether they were just slumming it out below their true level of civilization. Why not come clean about that colonial nature, which would then make explicit the squatting issue and erase the rights of the Ba'ku? Why claim to the UFP Council that the team was studying natives? Or was that claim only to outsiders like Picard? Even if so, why tell the lie when the truth would have carried benefits?

Timo Saloniemi

IIRC Dougherty did tell Picard the Baku weren't native to the planet when Picard said they should be protected by the PD.

The real secret both the Baku and the S'ona kept was that they were fundamentally the same species. Not sure why the latter would keep it a secret as it would give them grounds to declare the whole situation an 'internal matter' with which the Federation shouldn't concern themselves (by Picard's own reasoning as brought up during "Redemption"), but I can think of some uncharitable reasons, evidently, why the Baku would have kept it a secret.

 

[Timo]

IIRC Dougherty did tell Picard the Baku weren't native to the planet when Picard said they should be protected by the PD.

Which is at the heart of the problem here. If Picard needs to be told, this means he was lied to previously. Why the counterproductive lie? Simply to stop the "natives" from having a voice?

The real secret both the Baku and the S'ona kept was that they were fundamentally the same species. Not sure why the latter would keep it a secret as it would give them grounds to declare the whole situation an 'internal matter' with which the Federation shouldn't concern themselves (by Picard's own reasoning as brought up during "Redemption"), but I can think of some uncharitable reasons, evidently, why the Baku would have kept it a secret.

Then again, Rua'fo was chiefly out to make the Ba'ku suffer - the elixir of youth was sorta secondary, as they could have it anyway. And even the bit about a "natural" dose of the elixir not sufficing for some may have been a dirty lie, to facilitate the destruction of the planet and the denial of youth from the Ba'ku.

The sinister motivation might get exposed if the blood connection was...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

I rather got the feeling that Picard simply went into the Briar Patch not knowing much at all about the situation. He wasn't lied to before, he simply had no idea what the situation was. Dougherty was demurring as well, up until Data became fully functional again.

I think the jury's still out on where Ru'afo's priorities lay, at least at the start of the film. And if you start disbelieving everything we're told about the situation, then we really can't draw any conclusions either way because we won't know anything for certain.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Oh this is the film with the unfinished blue screen showing as Picard climbs scaffolding isn't it?

I just remember that bit sticking out a bit and it looked odd.