Destroying Caretaker array after getting home first?

[Guy Gardener]

It's not about the status quo.

It's about natural development.

Janeway was willing to give the Kazon the Array. It was all there's so long as she could use it first. The Kazon told her to suck it, and started a fight.

The self destruct probably would have worked, but the Kazon are sneaky, and if all they do is piracy and salvage, then all they do is counter and defeat self destruct devices, then all they got to do is out wit an old dude who can't remember if he is a man or a woman.

Maybe he's special and can frakk either gender (Harry and B'Elanna) to make a baby, or maybe he forgot which type of hole his space genitals were supposed to go into to make a baby Caretaker.

The Caretaker is dumb.

He said that he turned on the self destruct, but it could have been a cigarette vending machine.

 

[MAGolding]

Tuvok said that exploding the array would alter the balance of power in this corner of the galaxy. Either the kazon became Gods, or they got some water and didn't become gods. That is two futures, one where the Galaxy is at war with the Kazon, and one where the Galaxy has no fucking idea what a Kazon is. Janeway a woman in charge of barely 140 people, decided the fate of trillions of trillions of people for the better or worse, and if it all went tits up, Earth would take the blame, and that's what the Prime Directive is really about: Limited liability.



It's about protecting the useless. Janeway has limited resources. The federation has limited resources. Janeway wasted half her torpedoes (remember: THEY CAN'T MAKE ANY MORE!) protecting the Ocampa from the Kazon, then she moves on, and the Kazon come back a week later. Hell the kazon have a valuable cormaline refinery on Ocampa. They never left. We are not even sure if Janeway went back to Ocampa after the battle at the array.

Realistically if as soon as Voyager leaves parking orbit above Ocampa, the Kazon will reclaim the planet, then Janeway can have never have left that solar system, or they will all die. Voyagers crew will die of old age, like Caretaker did, protecting the endless generations of Ocampa from first the Kazon, and then the other hundred threats within spitting distance.

Cows.

One other course of action for Janeway would be to teach the Ocampa to build spaceships, enough spaceships to build a fleet to carry the entire population of their single city. Then Voyager could lead and protect that "rag tag fugitive fleet" of Ocampa as they sought a safe place to live. And as well as i can tell, such a course of action would have been the only chance of survival for the Ocampa.

 

[Guy Gardener]

One other course of action for Janeway would be to teach the Ocampa to build spaceships, enough spaceships to build a fleet to carry the entire population of their single city. Then Voyager could lead and protect that "rag tag fugitive fleet" of Ocampa as they sought a safe place to live. And as tear as i can tell, such a course of action would have been the only chance of survival for the Ocampa.

Caretaker asked Janeway to be the Ocampas new Caretaker and she said "No".

 

[Jayson1]

If they wanted Janeway could have sent the crew home in shuttles while staying behind to destroy both the array and ship. Jason

 

[Guy Gardener]

If they wanted Janeway could have sent the crew home in shuttles while staying behind to destroy both the array and ship. Jason

So Chakotay crashed 15 shuttles during the course of the show, and we all assumed that they just kept building new shuttles every time Chuckles totaled one., but your suggestion is that the 30-something shuttles we saw in the show, that our intrepid crew drove into planets and wrapped around various space obstacles were always there since the pilot?

Cool.

 

[Jayson1]

So Chakotay crashed 15 shuttles during the course of the show, and we all assumed that they just kept building new shuttles every time Chuckles totaled one., but your suggestion is that the 30-something shuttles we saw in the show, that our intrepid crew drove into planets and wrapped around various space obstacles were always there since the pilot?

Cool.

Well I was also thinking escape pods as well. Jason

 

[jmidnight_99]

Then the show would end at season 1, episode 2

There's pretty much no reason to debate beyond this point.

 

[jmidnight_99]

So Chakotay crashed 15 shuttles during the course of the show, and we all assumed that they just kept building new shuttles every time Chuckles totaled one., but your suggestion is that the 30-something shuttles we saw in the show, that our intrepid crew drove into planets and wrapped around various space obstacles were always there since the pilot? Cool.

Well I was also thinking escape pods as well. Jason

Yeah, knew what you meant a right after I read it... of course if anyone thought about it, there wouldn't have been an convenient excuse to insult the show, or you, for that matter.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Or Voyager full of all those brave starfleet officers and filthy terrorists, could have gone home and then from an escape pod or a shuttle, left behind, Janeway could have over seen the destruction of the array, and then tried to get home ASAP meandering along at warp 4.

 

[Farscape One]

I wonder if a part of Janeway's depression in "NIGHT" was realizing that within that year, the Ocampa would run out of power and be forced to go above. Since they had no starships and couldn't fend for themselves, they are easy prey for the Kazon.

All Janeway did, and the Caretaker too, was delay the inevitable.

Though one wild card... maybe Suspiria would have gone back to the Ocampa world and brought them to another planet, or even created another Array, and guide their growth like she did with the others.

 

[jmidnight_99]

I wonder if a part of Janeway's depression in "NIGHT" was realizing that within that year, the Ocampa would run out of power and be forced to go above. Since they had no starships and couldn't fend for themselves, they are easy prey for the Kazon.

All Janeway did, and the Caretaker too, was delay the inevitable.

Though one wild card... maybe Suspiria would have gone back to the Ocampa world and brought them to another planet, or even created another Array, and guide their growth like she did with the others.

I thought the caretaker had given them enough power to last 5 years, I could be wrong.

Either way, the whole Kes situation was badly handled. Unfortunately, the production staff missed the perfect opportunity to close the whole loop when Kes was written off the show. Instead of the stupid "She's too powerful to control herself" storyline and that AWFUL "Fury" storyline, it would have made much more sense to have Kes leave Voyager to go back to Ocampa to reawaken her people's telekinetic abilities. The Ocampa would have been able to defend themselves against the Kazon (or just destroy them like one would do with any parasite) and reclaim their identities. It would have validated Janeway's decision to help them, and provided a better reason for Kes to leave Voyager.

That would have closed the whole loop, and made for a much better exit for Kes. I wonder why they didn't think of it.

 

[Prax]

At the end of Fury, Kes heads back to Ocampa

 

[jmidnight_99]

At the end of Fury, Kes heads back to Ocampa

i forgot that. Even so... Don't you agree that they screwed the pooch on the whole story arc? She's destabilizing the ship, so she has to leave, by some magic she won't destabilize the shuttle they give her. She returns years later, old and near death to undo her time on Voyager. THEN she decides to go back to Ocampa?

Going back to Ocampa to free, liberate, educate, her people should have and would have been the first thing on the character's mind. This story arc would have validated everything that happened up to then, and made sense of her leaving.

 

[Prax]

i forgot that. Even so... Don't you agree that they screwed the pooch on the whole story arc? She's destabilizing the ship, so she has to leave, by some magic she won't destabilize the shuttle they give her. She returns years later, old and near death to undo her time on Voyager. THEN she decides to go back to Ocampa?

Going back to Ocampa to free, liberate, educate, her people should have and would have been the first thing on the character's mind. This story arc would have validated everything that happened up to then, and made sense of her leaving.

if I were to rank it with Tasha's death, or Jadzia's death, I'd say Kes comes out slightly ahead.

In Fury, Kes says that she wanted to go back to Ocampa, but she knew they would be frightened by her, and wouldn't understand her, so she tried to go back a different way. If you read the production notes for the episode, the writer wanted to put a twist on a conventional, predictable feel good conclusion to Kes. It's meant to be a more dystopian answer to "What happens when you gain magical powers"

 

[Farscape One]

Regardong leaving Kes in the shuttle...

Kes was destabilizing the entire ship, which meant she was putting the lives of the entire crew in jeopardy. Even though it was totally accidental, Janewsy still has to safeguard the lives of her crew. Putting Kes on a shuttle did that, and she probably figured she could help Kes while still keeping her crew safe.

 

[jmidnight_99]

if I were to rank it with Tasha's death, or Jadzia's death, I'd say Kes comes out slightly ahead.

I don't think either of these deaths were bad... I think that they were realistic. In both situations someone died they way someone would die.

In Fury, Kes says that she wanted to go back to Ocampa, but she knew they would be frightened by her, and wouldn't understand her, so she tried to go back a different way. If you read the production notes for the episode, the writer wanted to put a twist on a conventional, predictable feel good conclusion to Kes. It's meant to be a more dystopian answer to "What happens when you gain magical powers"

Where do you get these production notes, I'd really enjoy reading them. Online or in some book?

Her telekinetic abilities restored, she's unable to go home because the Ocampa wouldn't understand her. So she comes back to beat up Voyager. It is out of character, don't you think? And you're the Kes guy! She didn't like it when people were mean to a computer program.

The Ocampa were living underground, or an arid planet unintentionally destroyed by unimaginably powerful aliens, then they were sent underground and kept alive by energy pulses from an alien space station, with parasitic Kazon lurking above and trying to break in, and Kes was going to frighten them?

I don't buy it. I like my version of what was supposed to happen better.

Regardong leaving Kes in the shuttle...
Kes was destabilizing the entire ship, which meant she was putting the lives of the entire crew in jeopardy. Even though it was totally accidental, Janewsy still has to safeguard the lives of her crew. Putting Kes on a shuttle did that, and she probably figured she could help Kes while still keeping her crew safe.

If Kes was involuntarily destabilizing the ship, why wouldn't Kes also involuntarily destabilize the shuttle? How would Janeway know that Kes was going to be OK in the shuttle? She didn't know. Since Kes was destabilizing Voyager it would be a reasonable assumption that she would also destabilize the shuttle. Since it was reasonable to assume Kes would also probably destabilize the shuttle, exactly how was putting Kes in the shuttle helping her?

Now THIS is illogical.

 

[Farscape One]

Janeway had to choose between possibly getting one crewman killed or definitely the entire crew.

In that case, I think she made the right call, even without the 9,500 light year jump.

 

[Prax]

Where do you get these production notes, I'd really enjoy reading them. Online or in some book?

I'm sure there are books with a lot more detail, but you can look at the Wikipedia and Memory Alpha articles for "The Gift," and "Fury" to get background info on the story.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

The real question is, why didn't they use the Array to cause a displacement wave to move both the Array and Voyager to the Alpha Quadrant at the same time? Or, if they were worried about the Kazon overrunning it, either create a displacement wave to send both out of the sector so they have some quiet time to think, or create some stalling negotiations to occupy the Kazon with until they were able to figure out the logistics of sending Voyager and the Array back? Or, hell, create a displacement wave and send the Kazon ships somewhere else while they figure shit out

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway doesn't like murdering people yet.

1/4 of her crew died coming to the DQ.

The Kazon city ship had up to 40,000 men women and children in it.

If she sent that city ship to the GQ, that's ten thousand dead Kazon.

Which is an over-reaction?