Spoilers DSC: The Enterprise War by John Jackson Miller Review Thread

[Christopher]

And I think you even noted you've done that on occasion in your own original works. So in a way you're not even safe from yourself

Yes; the first half of my upcoming novel Arachne's Crime is an expanded and revised version of my debut story "Aggravated Vehicular Genocide," replacing its flawed science with something more credible and also taking the opportunity to add far more depth to the character development and worldbuilding. It supersedes the story in the continuity of my main original universe -- and I've already revised elements of that story twice in its republications online and in my print collection. The overall event itself is still canonical in my main universe, and the bulk of the dialogue and action from the story is still the same in all versions, but some details have been changed, and the new novel should be the definitive version from now on.

I've also made the occasional slight narrative change when collecting my Hub stories from Analog into book form, but in almost every case it was to correct an error in the original edition.

 

[WebLurker]

Well, that was just the example I could think of.

Fair enough.

The point is that a show or movie doesn't have to be contemporaneous with a book to contradict it, because it can contradict an element of worldbuilding or backstory. After all, when TNG came along, it massively contradicted what TOS novels had established about the Klingons and Romulans, and eventually about the history of the UFP. The fact that the novels were set a century before TNG didn't exempt them from being contradicted by it, because what was contradicted was basic worldbuilding, underlying constants of the universe, rather than just events "local" to a specific time frame.[/QUOTE]

Oh, sure. (Read some of those books, all after they were overwritten to death; liked the Klingon one a lot, hated the Romulan ones).

 

[JD]

And of course with the new Picard show coming along there is a good chance large swaths of the relaunches may become "nullified".

It's not even a chance at this point, the backstory revealed at the Picard museum has already made every TNG book going at least back to 2381 incomparable with the show.
The only question now is how the books are going to deal with it.

 

[Christopher]

It's not even a chance at this point, the backstory revealed at the Picard museum has already made every TNG book going at least back to 2381 incomparable with the show.

Just because something's in an exhibit connected to the show doesn't mean it's actually going to be true in the show. Even if the display items were actual set dressing, that doesn't make their text canonically binding unless it comes up in dialogue or as a plot point. People are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on that exhibit.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

I'm in complete agreement with you once again, Mr. Bennett. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

 

[WebLurker]

Just because something's in an exhibit connected to the show doesn't mean it's actually going to be true in the show. Even if the display items were actual set dressing, that doesn't make their text canonically binding unless it comes up in dialogue or as a plot point. People are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on that exhibit.

Maybe, but what're future creators going to pull from, the books or the stuff produced for the TV show?

 

[Christopher]

Maybe, but what're future creators going to pull from, the books or the stuff produced for the TV show?

My point is that "created for an exhibit promoting the TV show" does not equal "produced for the TV show." An exhibit is in the same category as a tie-in novel -- a peripheral item created to promote the show.

I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. Will the new show probably overwrite the novels? Yes, of course it probably will. But can we assume we already know what's in the show based on what was in the promotional exhibit? No, that would be reckless and naive. That question has not been definitively answered yet.

 

[WebLurker]

My point is that "created for an exhibit promoting the TV show" does not equal "produced for the TV show." An exhibit is in the same category as a tie-in novel -- a peripheral item created to promote the show.

I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. Will the new show probably overwrite the novels? Yes, of course it probably will. But can we assume we already know what's in the show based on what was in the promotional exhibit? No, that would be reckless and naive. That question has not been definitively answered yet.

Sorry, did not realize that there was an actual display to market the movie going around.

 

[Damian]

Don't forget, David Mack, and Dayton Ward I believe (or was it James Swallow, I forget) have told us all to relax, they have a plan for all this .

I've gone back and forth on the whole litverse thing with the new Picard show coming out. At one time I was thinking if they just retained Rene, the destruction of the Borg and not focus too much on the past, most of the novel lines could continue in some form or another. Then pessimism that it was basically all going to be wiped out and the relaunches would end at that point. Now I would say I'm at a more realistic place.

There may be some storylines that could continue. We do know the show runners have at least reviewed some tie-in information (which by itself is a big step from past producers who basically ignored tie-ins for the most part). But there are other tie-ins of course, including comics for instance. But it's possible they decide to build off a story line or two from the litverse if it serves their ends. Perhaps, for instance, there's something from the whole Section 31 storyline they decide to work off of. We assume, probably with good reason, that something during Romulus' destruction has a profound effect on Picard. However, that does not mean that's the only thing that has an effect on his current situation in the show. Perhaps it's the Section 31 angle AND something that happened during Romulus' destruction (and perhaps other things as well). I'm just speculating of course, on a way something from the litverse could be continued.

I am very curious to read "Collateral Damage". David Mack, is, after all, the one who said they have a "plan." And based on some of his later comments I don't think that was simply tongue in cheek. I'm not expecting "Collateral Damage" to be significantly tied to Picard, but I have to admit I'm curious to see if his new novel has any hints, not only hints about "Picard" but hints about what that plan might entail. I do find it interesting also that the novel cover reverted to the original TV show logo instead of the relaunch logo (which I admit bugs my OCD since I have all my TNG novels in order and this one will appear differently--I kind of wish if they were going to do that they would have started with "Available Light" since that was the first trade TNG relaunch novel....but I digress). But I get the impression they reverted to that logo because they don't just want us followers of the relaunches to buy it, but old fans of TNG that are excited about a follow up show. Fans that might buy the book thinking it may give them some world building toward the new show, however minor. I mean, of course it's possible they're just capitalizing on the new show but I'd be surprised if there is absolutely nothing that ties this novel to the upcoming show in any way.

Now, I am still pessimistic about every seeing any more DS9 or Enterprise books (or Voyager books after "To Lose the Earth" comes out). And I'm not sure we'll get any actual TNG books after "Collateral Damage". I have a feeling they'll switch them to Picard books and be more focused on tying into that show. Though I continue to hope the existing novelverse at least takes us to the destruction of Romulus and how that reorients the various allies of the Khitomer Accords and Typhon Pact.

 

[JD]

Just because something's in an exhibit connected to the show doesn't mean it's actually going to be true in the show. Even if the display items were actual set dressing, that doesn't make their text canonically binding unless it comes up in dialogue or as a plot point. People are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on that exhibit.

The whole point of the exhibit was the explore Picard's life leading up the show, and him becoming an admiral and leaving Starfleet are to important to the show's backstory for me to believe that they just randomly made them up and just threw them in there for the hell of it. I find it very, very hard to believe those specific events and dates won't be at least referred to in the first episode.

 

[Christopher]

The whole point of the exhibit was the explore Picard's life leading up the show, and him becoming an admiral and leaving Starfleet are to important to the show's backstory for me to believe that they just randomly made them up and just threw them in there for the hell of it. I find it very, very hard to believe those specific events and dates won't be at least referred to in the first episode.

They very well may, but we won't know that for sure until we see the actual show. Even if something seems likely, that doesn't make it a definite fact, not until you have actual confirmation.

After all, things tend to be in flux early in the creation of a series. Creators change their minds. Even if the information in the exhibit was intended to be "true" at the time, that doesn't guarantee it won't be changed. Try looking at the first-draft TNG writers' bible sometime. Data created by aliens (and rhyming with "that-a"), Riker prejudiced against androids, Geordi being the liaison with the ship's children, Worf not even existing. Deep Space 9 was originally going to be in an asteroid belt and ships would have to have their engines recalibrated before passing through the wormhole -- both of which were changed pretty late in production so that they made it into several early novels. Nothing is final until it's in an aired episode (and even then it can be changed later).

 

[WebLurker]

They very well may, but we won't know that for sure until we see the actual show. Even if something seems likely, that doesn't make it a definite fact, not until you have actual confirmation.

After all, things tend to be in flux early in the creation of a series. Creators change their minds. Even if the information in the exhibit was intended to be "true" at the time, that doesn't guarantee it won't be changed. Try looking at the first-draft TNG writers' bible sometime. Data created by aliens (and rhyming with "that-a"), Riker prejudiced against androids, Geordi being the liaison with the ship's children, Worf not even existing. Deep Space 9 was originally going to be in an asteroid belt and ships would have to have their engines recalibrated before passing through the wormhole -- both of which were changed pretty late in production so that they made it into several early novels. Nothing is final until it's in an aired episode (and even then it can be changed later).

That even made it into the pilot to an extent; early on, the wormhole aliens tell Sisko that the ship engines are disruptive to their existence, but then it gets dropped without resolution, leaving the question hanging why it was left in in the first place if the refitting idea was cut. (As I recall, wasn't it cut to let ships come from the other side without raising questions as to how they were fixing their engines?)

 

[Christopher]

but then it gets dropped without resolution, leaving the question hanging why it was left in in the first place if the refitting idea was cut.

Presumably because it wasn't abandoned until after the pilot was locked. It's the nature of pilots that sometimes they have plot points or characters that get abandoned by episode 2, sometimes with a handwave and sometimes with no explanation. The 1990 The Flash dropped its Iris West character without explanation after the pilot. Elementary replaced the pilot's NYPD-detective character with Jon Michael Hill in the equivalent role. Alien Nation's pilot had a subplot about a fatal disease that the female lead had contracted, but it was completely ignored afterward.

And then there was that space show where they replaced every character from the pilot except the alien guy...

 

[David cgc]

That even made it into the pilot to an extent; early on, the wormhole aliens tell Sisko that the ship engines are disruptive to their existence, but then it gets dropped without resolution, leaving the question hanging why it was left in in the first place if the refitting idea was cut. (As I recall, wasn't it cut to let ships come from the other side without raising questions as to how they were fixing their engines?)

One of DRG3's novels flashed back to Sisko's first meeting with the Prophets, and included him "negotiating" passage through the wormhole (which I'd always wondered about), and I think mentioned the engine thing (or maybe the Prophets adjusted the wormhole).

 

[F. King Daniel]

The whole point of the exhibit was the explore Picard's life leading up the show, and him becoming an admiral and leaving Starfleet are to important to the show's backstory for me to believe that they just randomly made them up and just threw them in there for the hell of it. I find it very, very hard to believe those specific events and dates won't be at least referred to in the first episode.

Yep. And Picard isn't the kind of show that has a pilot and then a series is made with a subtly altered premise, it's a 10-part story according to the people involved.

Furthermore, the story was conceived by Trek novelist Kirsten Beyer, so she knows what she's contradicting.

The Picard exhibit exists to promote the show and tease Picard's post-Nemesis future, with props from the show which feature dates and details contradicting the novels. Even if the show itself doesnt reference them specifically, people only half as pedantic as us would insist they alone are proof enough the novelverse is null and void.

 

[Christopher]

Yep. And Picard isn't the kind of show that has a pilot and then a series is made with a subtly altered premise, it's a 10-part story according to the people involved.

Furthermore, the story was conceived by Trek novelist Kirsten Beyer, so she knows what she's contradicting.

Writers don't make something up at the start of the process and keep it permanently unchanged forever. Creativity is a process of successive approximation, of trial and error. We rethink and revise everything multiple times. At every stage of the process, the entire work is reviewed, re-evaluated, and adjusted, often getting substantially altered if a problem is discovered in the execution, or if a better idea occurs to the creators along the way. This is why big feature films routinely go back and do reshoots after principal photography is finished. Everything, everything, is subject to change up until the creative process is completed.

I recently found time to finish an original writing project based on an outline I've had in mind for over a decade. I was about 2/3 of the way through when I had to take my last break, and when I started to apply myself to bringing it to a conclusion, I found myself rethinking it. I'd gained new perspective and new experiences over time, and that let me realize that the ending I'd planned was weak and lacking in thematic depth. I also realized it posed some logistical and technical complications that I hadn't recognized until the time came to apply myself to the specifics of its execution. So I ended up devising an entirely new ending, even retroactively changing the identity of the villain of the piece and making other adjustments in the parts I'd already written in order to set up the new resolution. And what I have now, while complete, is still just a first draft. I don't know yet what other changes I'll make as I revise it, or what further changes I'll be asked to make when and if I sell it. It's not done until it's released.

The Picard exhibit exists to promote the show and tease Picard's post-Nemesis future, with props from the show which feature dates and details contradicting the novels. Even if the show itself doesnt reference them specifically, people only half as pedantic as us would insist they alone are proof enough the novelverse is null and void.

Of course that's likely, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm merely saying that it's premature to mistake the specifics of the exhibit for solid canon. We don't know yet how much of it is actually from the show and how much is just placeholder text invented to sound credible.

 

[Stevil2001]

One of DRG3's novels flashed back to Sisko's first meeting with the Prophets, and included him "negotiating" passage through the wormhole (which I'd always wondered about), and I think mentioned the engine thing (or maybe the Prophets adjusted the wormhole).

K. W. Jeter's early novel Bloodletter also mentioned that ships passing through the wormhole had to get impulse dampeners installed. (But of course this doesn't really fit with the vast number of ships we see going through the wormhole on screen that wouldn't have done this.)

 

[Dayton Ward]

The exhibit was intended to tie directly to the show and offer hints about what will be seen. The text accompanying the various items - particularly those that provide tidbits about the period between Star Trek Nemesis and the new series - were drawn from the new show's scripts and other information that was known as the exhibit was being assembled.

(I know this is so because I wrote most of the stuff on those placards. )

That said, Christopher is correct, in that changes can and do occur during production, so there might well be a couple of small details that end up shifting during the process. Indeed, we've already updated a couple of placards as the exhibit is being prepped for the Destination Star Trek convention in October.

No, I'm not telling you which ones.

 

[JD]

So does that mean you've gotten to read some of the scripts then?
And yeah, I'm aware stuff will change as the shows go on. I guess I should have specified that I was talking about when the information was put together.

 

[Christopher]

K. W. Jeter's early novel Bloodletter also mentioned that ships passing through the wormhole had to get impulse dampeners installed. (But of course this doesn't really fit with the vast number of ships we see going through the wormhole on screen that wouldn't have done this.)

The same thing happened with early novels in the other series; TNG: Ghost Ship featured Riker's anti-android prejudice from the bible as a major part of his character (as well as calling him "Bill"), and several early VGR novels referred to the Doctor as "Doc Zimmerman," since it was originally planned that he'd adopt that name.