How many examples are there where a D7 engages a starship and Kirk is NOT the captain?
Or are you getting your observations from non canon sources?
Friday's Child Klingon scout ship
- Thread starter Lieut. Arex
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Or are you getting your observations from non canon sources?
It's their D7 model, yes. La-zy.
I’m saying that in TOS, the Federation and the Klingons seem to be on equal terms technology-wise. Ergo, it’s logical to assume that their ship technology is also on equal footing.
TOS-R is Klingon Propaganda, I say! Klingon Propaganda!
Yep. Clearly so.
Surely what "seems" is what is seen, by definition? And we see the Klingons fight with three-on-one odds unless caught with their pants down.
What independent reason would we have for thinking that their ships are on equal footing?
The thing is, in TOS-R, if it looks like a duck, walks like one, and quacks like one, it's a Class J freighter instead. The same model was used thrice for three distinct and differently sized ships; we really can't tell whether the Great Makers on this particular occasion even intended for their D7 to be a D7.
No reason to think the Klingons couldn't have a scoutship that's fifty feet long and looks like the D7. In fact, every reason to think they would have exactly that, considerin'.
But as said, this being a battle cruiser utilized for scouting and afraid of running into a full Federation starship is also a problem-free interpretation.
Timo Saloniemi
Except, as I mentioned before, we saw nothing of the sort, as the only time we saw D7s in threes was when the Romulans were using them.
And then in TAS (one Klingon ambush with three ships, two Romulan ones with three ships, plus one solo Klingon forced to a confrontation when hunting for a much humbler quarry) and TWoK/ST '09 (one Klingon ambush with three ships). Every intentional confrontation with a Federation starship involves three D7s, save for "Elaan of Troyius" where the Klingons count on sabotage. Why discount this evidence?
What to make of TMP, though? Klingons attack in a three-ship, but it appears they have no idea what they are up against: the report from the Amar sounds as if the trio just stumbled upon the wandering-star-system-with-an-attitude while engaged in some other type of mission. Another tailormade ambush for Kirk? Or another generic example of Klingons sending three ships to do jobs that Starfleet always handles with just one?
Timo Saloniemi
What to make of TMP, though? Klingons attack in a three-ship, but it appears they have no idea what they are up against: the report from the Amar sounds as if the trio just stumbled upon the wandering-star-system-with-an-attitude while engaged in some other type of mission. Another tailormade ambush for Kirk? Or another generic example of Klingons sending three ships to do jobs that Starfleet always handles with just one?
Timo Saloniemi
1. I haven’t seen TAS, but we were talking about TOS.
2. TWoK/ST09: there were no Klingon ships in either of those movies. If you’re referring to the KM, that’s just a computerized test.
3. TOS “Day of the Dove” only had one D7 as well. So did TOS-R “Trouble with Tribbles” (I’m assuming that even though TOS never showed Koloth’s ship, that it was a D7 just like DS9 and TOS-R shows.)
4. TMP: the Klingons were not engaging a Constitution class ship. They were engaging a huge unknown alien cloud. So that’s not a valid comparison of battle tactics between a Federation starship and a Klingon battlecruiser.
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Pre-production information while interesting, doesn't change the fact that the first time the audience saw the ship it was a Klingon ship and it had Klingon design attributes.
And his "dog."
Maybe a small scout ship dropped Kras off or maybe he's lying to Kirk, but Chekov's instruments definitely pick up a Klingon warship out in space so either they had more than one vessel in the area as Capella was very important to them or Kras was telling porkies!!!
JB
JB
Is it really a retcon if it was a "fanon" explanation to begin with? Here's a better explanation: Klingons and Romulans both buy their ships and weapons from the Corellians.
I figured (read: hoped) somebody would get the reference.
I Understood That Reference.
Yes, we need proof of these pretend things being the way they pretended and not another way.
I like the idea that the Klingons had more than one kind of ship and while I liked the ships inserted into Errand of Mercy and Trouble with Tribbles, the ones in Friday's Child and A Private Little War seem like a problem, especially Friday's Child because the Klingon's really were not sneaking around but only sending one Agent to handle the negotiations, they wouldn't need a big ship for that. But that's my opinion.
Pure speculation of the day:
Kras was dropped off by a small scout ship, and he thought such a ship would be lending its support to his mission. But the High Command knew the Federation was also sending a delegation, and wanted more firepower to back Kras up if needed.
Kras was dropped off by a small scout ship, and he thought such a ship would be lending its support to his mission. But the High Command knew the Federation was also sending a delegation, and wanted more firepower to back Kras up if needed.
It wasn't fanon that the STIII BoP was originally supposed to be a Romulan ship; that's a fact.
I think he was referring to in-universe, where's there's nothing which officially states that the BOP was a Romulan ship.
I thought we were talking the D7?
And in general, we're talking Klingons, who are a central part of Star Trek in all its incarnations. Do they challenge the heroes one on one? Only when pushed into a corner. In single-ship attacks, they expect to gloriously lose and die, often stating as much.
Supposedly based on how the enemy would behave, though. And indeed this is witnessed enemy behavior, from the previous onscreen fights.
Neither of those attacked Kirk's ship, or expected to meet her (or any other Starfleet asset) in combat.
That depends on whether the Klingons were prepared for what they faced. Realistically, they should have sent a thousand ships to counter an enemy a thousand times larger than a Starfleet starship. But they sent three. Is a three-ship a standard fighting formation or not? TOS, TAS and movie evidence shows the Klingons using that one whenever attacking, and using single ships only for retreating or sneaky maneuvering. (FWIW, there's no evidence of five-ships being used, say, but we hear of an eight-ship once.)
The question ultimately is one of choosing between utterly ignoring statistics and of accepting statistics as support for an otherwise frivorous idea of 3:1 being the way to defeat a Starfleet ship, in total absence of contrary evidence. There's no pressing reason to accept the statistics, as the sample size is insignificantly small. But theres no pressing reason not to, either.
Timo Saloniemi
I don't buy that theory! The Romulans bought cloaking technology from the Klingons and gave them the new D-7 style warships!!! 
The Klingons gave the Romulans their designs in exchange for cloaking abilities! As referenced by Spock in the episode that the Romulans are now using Klingon ships! In order to promote the new Klingon ship to the viewers indeed as there were only two episodes with the fuzz faced goons in the third season if you don't count The Savage Curtain!
JB
The Klingons gave the Romulans their designs in exchange for cloaking abilities! As referenced by Spock in the episode that the Romulans are now using Klingon ships! In order to promote the new Klingon ship to the viewers indeed as there were only two episodes with the fuzz faced goons in the third season if you don't count The Savage Curtain! JB
Ok, fine. Please post a screencap from TAS which shows three D7s attacking the Enterprise (or three D7s doing anything at all), because I sure couldn't find any when I looked.
They are not even close to being as consistent in their actions as you describe.
Not really. It's a no-win scenario. If the person taking the test won against three D7's, then the next time it would be four, and then five, and then as many as were needed to finally lose the battle.
The "previous onscreen fight" was stock footage from TMP. In-universe, it could have been the Epsilon 9 recordings taken out of context for use in the KM. Hardly definitive proof of standard Klingon battle tactics against a Constitution class ship.
They knew the Enterprise was out there. They could have called for backup. They did not.
Of course they weren't prepared. It was a huge cloud. It wasn't an enemy ship. They had no reason to think this cloud was going to shoot disintegrator beams back at them. Do you think the Air Force would send up hundreds of their most powerful and armed planes to intercept a funny cloud in the air?
The relevant episodes would be "Time Trap" (where dialogue specifies that the one disappearing D7 and the two that then appear were working as a team, supposedly specifically to confront Kirk) and "Practical Joker" (where three Romulan D7s are showing attacking in formation, specifically to ambush Kirk).
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/blu-ray/112-BR/thetimetraphd0046.jpg
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/blu-ray/203-BR/thepracticaljokerhd0022.jpg
The TAS episode with a single D7 is "More Tribbles", where Koloth's lone vessel, initially in pursuit of a small scoutboat, eventually tackles a Federation three-ship of sorts with its supergun! (And of course loses, and has to yield to Kirk.)
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/blu-ray/105-BR/moretribblesmoretroubleshd0115.jpg
(What is rather remarkable here is how much "original" art is used, instead of mere recycling of stock. Heck, the Romulan ships even have distinct yellow patterning to differentiate them from the Klingon ones.)
That's one possibility. Nothing of the sort is shown in the respective movies, though. And the simulations do start out with a three-ship, for whatever reason. The fairly obvious one would be "this is how Klingons tackle Starfleet starships when they expect to win".
Then again, this is how the Klingons always fight a Constitution class ship.
Except in "Elaan of Troyius" where an initially cautious ship moves in after a saboteur succeeds, and in confrontations where the Klingons don't get to choose, that is. So instead of "definite proof", we have an unbroken pattern, which is what I'm interested in here.
Hmh? Backup isn't a thing in TOS - it's quite a plot point that Kirk can't get any, under any circumstances.
What Klingons do when they see the Enterprise is out there is flee, as per the very subject of this thread. Unless they have a three-ship or an ace in the sleeve, as per the unbroken pattern.
Well, they'd send their standard formation. So there you have it!
Timo Saloniemi