Production Order Group Viewing 2018

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Archivist13, May 8, 2018.

  1. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Such a disappointment to a father :devil:
     
  2. Donald G

    Donald G Commander Red Shirt

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    ANDREI CHEKOV: Ah, if only we lived in a timeline in which your older brother Piotr wasn't stillborn and we had given HIM the name we had originally intended instead of bestowing it on you, you great disappointment of a son. I bet HE would have graduated the Academy and made Ensign by seventeen.
     
  3. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think you mean Chief Engineer by 18.
     
  4. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You know, I never put those two things together before. Classic Chekov was nothing special as a young ensign, and later we saw him as an aging mediocrity, marking time in his long and undistinguished career.

    JJ-Chekov was a boy-wonder prodigy who seemed on course for greatness, if he hadn't died so young.

    The two are total opposites.
     
  5. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yep. I applaud Anton's performance but they shoe horned in a name check with a completely different personality years before the character should have been there when they should have worked to modernise Rand. Sad times.
     
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  6. Maurice

    Maurice Snagglepussed Admiral

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    Given current attitudes of many towards the Arab world comparing them to Klingons isn't something I'd consider advisable.
     
  7. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That makes so much sense I might just have to headcannon it! :techman:
     
  8. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    So, TOS-Chekov is now a younger brother of Nu-Chekov because Nu-Chekov's parents changed their sex life as a result of Nero's timeline change? There's a good chance his parents haven't even met, yet. Maybe the timeline ripple caused his father to marry another mother, thus the change in the Nu-Chekov family. The TOS-Chekov may never exist. Same with any character who was not born by the date of the Nero event. Includes Sulu, and Chekov, but not Rand, Spock, McCoy, Chapel, Uhura and Scotty. Okay.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  9. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Forgive me if I'm incorrect but Yeoman Rand is not in the new Star Trek films is she? :shifty:
    JB
     
  10. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    No, but that doesn't mean she doesn't exist somewhere else.

    The two lists of names are BK and AK (Before Kirk birth, After Kirk birth, where Kirk's birth is the date of the Nero event), but I did some fudging to determine who is older than Kirk and who is younger since all we know is that Kirk is roughly two years younger than William Shatner's real age (The Deadly Years, 34 vs. 36), and Chekov was 22 when Kirk was 34 (Who Mourns For Adonis).
     
  11. Phaser Two

    Phaser Two Commodore Premium Member

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    I don't think Chekov was a later-career mediocrity just because he never made captain, any more than Kirk was by ultimately making it "only" to the rank he held in Star Trek. Or Spock was by "only" being promoted one more step in rank. (And Spock was much older and had served much longer.) It's not clear what Chekov was doing at the time of Generations, but I don't think he was retired. Perhaps he was Kirk's aide or held a nice job in Starfleet on Earth. He would have been, what, 50? He might have eventually made captain; we don't know. (Much like McCoy eventually became an admiral, but long after we thought he was retired.) In any case it seems possible that he was traumatized by the loss of Captain Terrell and preferred to stay on Earth after Kirk gave up field commands. But making it all the way from O-1 to O-5 during the time we knew him is more advancement in rank than any of the other characters including Sulu. (If McCoy was a rear admiral they would be tied, but that assumes Chekov retired as a commander.)

    Chekov was also the first officer of a pretty powerful little ship on a top secret mission, and he had that awesome versatility, trained in command, sciences, communications, navigation, weapons, security, to some extent engineering, and even with some medical knowledge as we saw in Generations.

    I think he was pretty impressive. And we don't even know his full story.
     
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  12. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think Chekov as first officer on a research vessel feels like a more natural fit than chief of security or engineering. He was always sciency and bookwormy and not a great tactician. IMO.

    The fan created Phase II and STC did a fair job of developing his character in the direction of tactical officer mind you.
     
  13. Donald G

    Donald G Commander Red Shirt

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    That monologue is partly based on my personal family history. In a way, my name is doubly not my own.

    I'm a "junior." However, " Donald, Junior" was originally supposed to be my stillborn older brother. Since my parents didn't want to waste my father's name on a dead baby who couldn't pass it on down the line, it was held in reserve for the next surviving birth . . . mine.
     
  14. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Thanks for sharing this
    In a way your brother has lived on twice - first through you (by name) and now through a corner of Trek fandom! :techman:
     
  15. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    PLATO’S STEPCHILDREN
    AKA: People in authority can be arseholes

    Dipping back into the bag of Trek Tropes, we again find long lived aliens who spent some time in ancient Greece, only this time they didn’t influence any human history. Then they came to another planet, exploited the local technology (kironide) to their advantage and proceeded to act like arseholes, using a set of poorly defined powers (Return To Tomorrow). Then Kirk learns how to use the exact same tech and makes them promise to be nice before flying away, never to return.

    This was a bad, bad episode and IMO has usurped The Empath as the worst one of TOS.
    Both have long, drawn out scenes and feature extensive torture of the regulars, but that at least Empath had a plot with a clear focus and decent character moments.
    Plato’s Stepchildren has none of those and poorly written dialogue to boot! It lurches from lazy plotting (see above) to not one but TWO exposition dumps in the first 5 minutes (Alexander, then Captain’s log) to loosely connected scenes that exist solely to demonstrate how bad the baddies are, before Kirk & Spock turn the tables in the last 2 minutes, make them promise to be nice and leave, having achieved nothing.

    Kirk tries to have a “trek” moment with Alexander around 30 minutes in but it’s really not enough to save this episode - it's badly written, boring trash :wah:

    OTHER THOUGHTS:
    • Another distress call to start the episode? :sigh:
    • And just Kirk, Spock and McCoy beam down? :rolleyes:
    • Yet another episode that feels like a stage play :brickwall:
    • The Platonian’s population is 38 – exactly the number that the pinwheel alien in DOTD selected for its combatants – is there is a special significance to this figure?
    • Telekentic attacks are great for actors – invisible assailants are a hammy actor’s dream come true!
    • Uhura and Chapel are beamed down at 36 minutes in – just because they’re they only regular female characters on the Enterprise, it seems!
    • The Platonians are described as “all intellect, no morality” – exactly the morale of the story in The Empath.
      AGAIN. :rolleyes:
    • Kirk had a communicator stashed in his tunic the whole time? Dare I ask where??? :eek:

    THE KISS
    It's been fairly well established the the famous "inter racial kiss" this episode is famous for was not the very first on film or TV, but it's not even the first on Star Trek! The actress who played Elaan (France Nuyen) is of Vietnamese descent and had far more smoochy time with Kirk :adore:
    Nichelle Nichols does get nice scene right before she and Shatner kiss, but the fact that they are being physically forced to do it robs the scene of any nuance or significance - it's just another form of physical abuse being visited upon them by a bully.
    Like the massive exposition dumps earlier, this intentions behind this skit are blatant and have the subtlety of a brick.


    On a positive note, this episode features 2 lines which are an ingrained part of my fandom, thanks to Star Trek adverts I saw repeatedly in my youth:
    That latter line has so much truth about it... :mad:
     
  16. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Alexander was cool. The story is meh. I would have had far more respect for the episode if the women had been dosed too and Uhura had been the one whose power developed as the strongest.
     
  17. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    I'm a tech guy. I have nothing to say about this episode. :shrug:
     
  18. Poltargyst

    Poltargyst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And now we come to it. The ever-controversial...

    PLATO'S STEPCHILDREN!!!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

    The Platonians don't have any technology. How did they send a distress signal? With their minds they could send a message that would be recognized by a starship as a distress signal?

    Alexander's intro: holy exposition, Batman! It's not often a character outright tells you what the title of the episode means.

    I'm surprised that in 2000 or whatever years they've been on this planet no one ever got cut before. They really must lay around doing nothing.

    Kirk did come on a bit strong with Parmen making demands about releasing the ship, but of course Parmen is the douche here. That famous Kirk brashness even in the face of those more powerful than himself.

    How many aliens do we meet who've previously been to Earth? Redjac also comes to mind.

    Oh, the hated humiliation scenes. I didn't mind them so much this time, but in the past they would cause me great discomfort. And they could be a source of great embarrassment if someone else was in the room when they came on. And Kirk acting like a horse with Alexander riding? UGH. The scenes are hard to watch, but they are meant to be, really selling how sadistic these people are.

    Did they have Flamenco dancing in ancient Greece?

    Parmen: "How can you let this go on?" No, Parmen, you're the asshole here. Classic bully technique, blame the victim.

    The after-humiliation scenes are just great. More on this later.

    I do wonder why the Platonians gave them that much time to plot unmonitored.

    Why hello, Uhura and Christine. All the women on board the Enterprise, it's interesting they pick those two.

    Isn't Kirk all hunky with his shoulder bare? Spock's shoulder isn't bare. Clearly even the Platonians could not resist Kirk's manliness.

    Nimoy was a better singer than Shatner, though I think Nimoy's Bilbo Baggins song was better.

    I really wouldn't be expressing my innermost feelings in front of those douches, but you do what you need to, Uhura and Christine.

    The "kiss." In the past I've mocked this kiss as not even really being a kiss at all. I guess I'll be more generous and say that I guess Shatner's lips touch Nichols's, so okay it's a kiss. But come on. They do the bare minimum they can to be able to call it a kiss and still hide it as much as possible. That wasn't a kiss like Spock laid on Chapel. That wasn't a kiss like we've seen Kirk lay on women before. As we discussed when reviewing Elaan of Troyius, Star Trek's REAL first interracial kiss was Shatner and France Nuyen. And THAT was a kiss, no hiding that one. And it's been said that there were other interracial kisses prior to Star Trek anyway. Much ado about not much with this "kiss."

    I want to know what the first REAL kiss between a black and a white on tv was not this wimpy pseudo-kiss. I mean with the two of them deeply, passionately, intentionally playing tonsil hockey in full view.

    Oooh, yeah, poker and whip don't sound like much fun.

    Very clumsy frontal assault on Parmen Alexander tries and almost dies for it.

    Meh. Let Alexander kill Parmen. But Kirk as always displays that Star Trekian mercy which is one of his best qualities.

    It feels like Parmen and the douches got off easy, but I guess there wasn't much Kirk could do. It's not like you can take them into custody on the Enterprise nor strip them of their powers. The Enterprise was in danger of being destroyed the whole time it was there. Did Kirk, Spock, and McCoy have to use their powers to protect the Enterprise until they were out of range? They really had to just get the hell out of there.

    I'm so glad Alexander got to leave with them. I wish we could have seen him on board the ship and learn where he ended up.

    I wonder what Platonian society was like after they'd lost Alexander. My guess: the next least powerful Platonian became the new victim and nothing else changed.

    And now a Special Feature! Why Plato's Stepchildren is NOT the worst episode of Star Trek as some would have it. (Ahem)

    1. Alexander. What a great character, one of the best in TOS, and so well acted by Michael Dunn. I've said it before, I'll say it again. The mere presence of Alexander in this episode prevents it from being the worst. He is complex, sympathetic, good, noble. He could have all the power he wanted, but he stays true to himself.

    And he has a character arc! Not many characters in TOS get an arc. He starts out as the one Platonian who can't use TK. And he is badly bullied and abused by all the others for thousands of years. And as so often happens with abuse victims, he blames himself. Surely he must deserve this abuse, surely there is something inherently wrong with him. His self-loathing is palpable. But then an amazing thing happens. He meets these men from the Enterprise. And he likes them, admires them. They are good. But...they don't have powers either! And you can see in the discussion with Kirk the wheels turn and the switch is thrown. Just because he doesn't have the power, he doesn't deserve the abuse he's been taking! There isn't anything wrong with him!

    Alexander: "It's not me, it's not my size, it's them! It's them! It's them!" All that rage, all that self-hatred he's been heaping on himself for such a long time, and now he's able to apply it to the correct targets: his abusers. What a huge moment that is for Alexander! To realize he's not the one who deserves the hate! I'm sorry, that is a brilliant moment in this episode and in all of TOS.

    Show me a character in Spock's Brain or And the Children Shall Lead or Alternative Factor as good as Alexander. You can't? Exactly.

    2. The after-humiliation scenes. First we get Kirk, Spock, and McCoy licking their wounds. Kirk's taking it surprisingly well. Spock is furious. Have we ever seen Spock so angry? What a great job by Nimoy of displaying Spock's struggle to control his fury. He ends up crushing that cup. For a Vulcan that was tantamount to trashing a room.

    Then we get the discussion between Alexander and Kirk. Then we get Alexander sobbing, sorry he couldn't have been braver and warning them about Parmen sooner. Then we get our heroes using their minds to figure out the kirinide thing and taking the supplements. Lucky McCoy happened to have some kirinide solution. And we are given something to look forward to as we know that Parmen's about to get a surprise. All good stuff.

    3. Taking down the bullies. It's hardly original, but it's cathartic. We've seen it countless times in movies and on tv. The bullies use their superior power to humiliate the good guys until the good guys use their heads, their pluck, their will to pull the upset and take them down. Heck, it's the plot to Karate Kid. But isn't it fun when the bullies get taken down as they so richly deserve? It is freakin' GREAT when Parmen is trying to make Alexander stab himself and all of a sudden the knife turns away, and Parmen asks "who did that?" And Kirk responds with laughter "ha ha ha, I DID." THAT is a moment to stand up an cheer. Yeah, in your face, douchebag! Kirk is in the house, and you're about to get the Mother of all Kirk Fu's!

    I get it. People don't like the humiliation scenes. I don't like the humiliation scenes. Some people just can't get past them. It's too bad too, they are missing a lot of good stuff if that's all they see in this episode.

    Alien Watch! Platonians! Mostly douchebags except for Alexander.

    Season 1
    Talosians
    That big ugly Rigellian guy Pike fought in illusion
    Vina as an Orion girl in illusion
    Glimpse of other aliens captured by Talosians
    Ron Howard's brother
    That dog from Enemy Within
    Salt monster
    That hand plant...Gertrude
    Spock (duh)
    Charlie's parents (Thasians)*
    Romulans!
    (Ruk)
    Miri's planet kids (bonk bonk)
    Giant ape creatures of Taurus II
    Shore Leave Caretaker guy
    Trelaine and his folks*
    Gorn
    Metrons*
    The Lazerii
    The remarkably human-looking aliens of Beta 3. (RotA)
    The remarkably human-looking aliens of Emineminar VII (AToA)
    The Triffids of Omicron Ceti III (TSoP)
    The refreshingly non-human-looking Horta
    Organians*
    Klingons! (Remarkably human looking).
    (The Guardian of Forever)
    Flying pancakes

    Season 2
    Sylvia and Korob
    The Companion
    The remarkably human looking (though tall) Cappellans.
    Native Pollux IV-ians (Apollo and his gang)
    Full-blooded Vulcans
    The remarkably human looking citizens of Argelius II (WitF)
    Redjac
    The People of Vaal (Gamma Triangulians)
    Crew of the ISS Enterprise
    The remarkably human-looking** (except for maybe a dot on their forehead) Halkans
    Tribbles (not at all human looking)
    The remarkably human-looking citizens of...892-VI. Is that what they call this planet? (The Roman one.)
    Tall guys, short guys, Andorians, Tellurites, purple lady, Orion made up like an Andorian. (JtB)
    The remarkably human-looking people of Neural. (APLW)
    The awesome Mugato!
    Shahna, Lars, Tamoon, Kloog, Thrallmaster Galt, and the Providers
    The Cloud from the Tycho system.
    The BIG FREAKIN' AMEBA!!!!!
    The remarkably human-looking Iotians. (Gangsters)
    Kelvans! Who really look like big, cool squids but choose to look remarkably human.
    Sargon and the gang of not-quite-omnipotent aliens.
    Remarkably human looking Zeons of Zeon and Ekosians of Ekos. (PoF)
    The remarkably human looking Yangs and Coms of Omega IV.
    Isis! Who looks remarkably like a cat until she wants to look remarkably human.

    Season 3
    The decidedly non-human looking Melkotians.
    The remarkably human-looking Elasians and not so human looking Troyians.
    Lawyer in a muumuu. Remarkably human-looking but maybe that was on purpose.
    The remarkably human-looking Morgs and Eymorgs of Sigma Draconis.
    Kollos the Medusan
    Gem the Empath (remarkably human looking)
    Vians (the OTHER bumpy-headed aliens)
    Tholians!
    The remarkably human-looking Fabrini of Yo Mama.
    The malicious swirly ball of hate (DotD)
    The Platonians who are douchebags except for Alexander

    *Alien Watch sublist: omnipotent aliens!
    **By request
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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  19. Poltargyst

    Poltargyst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You're asking a lot for 1968.
     
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  20. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    True but Pam Grier would have slapped Parmen into the seventies.