Unpopular Trek opinions game

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by ED-209, May 15, 2019.

  1. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I remember reading an interview with Garrett Wang years ago where he said something along the lines of Hollywood tended to present Asian actors in only two ways: Evil or Emasculated. I wish I remembered where he said it so that I could track down the exact quote.
    Tough to have a committed relationship when you're on a space mission for five years or more and you're moving on to a new place every few days. It's either fraternizing with your crewmates (Not really an option when they're under your command, so Kirk, Picard, Riker, and most of the department heads are SOL), having a long-distance relationship for years on end (Like Janeway and her boyfriend back home), having your fun whenever you get shore leave, or staying chaste for years on end. Not a lot of great options there, romance-wise.
     
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  2. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    Maybe

    Why not, that is an old humancentric concept. You cannot expect unattached humans, (or any race) to spend five years or more away from home and be celibate. Plus there were never any official 'must never fraternise with the crew' rules in the franchise. The Vulcan adults have to mate every 7 years, in ENT Andorian Shran had a relationship with a crew member, the Klingons seems to manage.
    Kirk, Picard and Riker and most of the main crew chose to be everlasting bachelors taking their kicks where they could. The O'Briens and Sisko were a breath of relationship realism and fresh air.
     
  3. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    I believe most of Trek stories would benefit from a less shitty science. Sometimes it's really hard to get into it when you hear some of the absurdities that are proferred here and there.
     
  4. Tiberous Q Data

    Tiberous Q Data Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    In a one off situation Kirk is who I'd want in the Captain's chair even though I think on average Picard is the best captain.
    If for no other reason in a one off scenario it is better to be lucky than good but also because he will do whatever it takes and the devil take the rules.

    I liked Kes more than Seven or indeed all of the Voyager crew minus The Doctor and maybe B'lana.

    I think DS9 should have just ended with Janzia and failing that just kill off Dax too and Ersi could just be a be new Trill or flat out something else.

    Kirk should not have killed or sought to kill Gary Mitchell, I've always felt this was wrongheaded though I don't blame Jim. I think Mitchell would have grown into what he was evolving into or a super race would have constrained him until he did.

    I'd like to see what Wesley became.

    If it wasn't so derivative of Wrath of Khan Into Darkness would be the best Star Trek movie and is still close.

    Star Trek probably should never be movies at all.

    I like the first season of Next Generation though the actors are still getting into their characters.

    Kirk and Picard are still in the Nexus because your Nexus of getting out of the Nexus is still the Nexus. This is why I just disregard Generations for continuity purposes even though I like the movie.
     
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  5. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Vice Admiral Admiral

    That's a bit of a generalization if not ism. For example, many people in real life are voluntarily celibate (not to be misconstrued as "involuntarily celibate" aka "incel", for which huge and unpleasant differences tend to exist). Like me. Big difference to "everyone has sex", and very much possible. And I know I'm not the only such person out there who is voluntarily in that way. It's not a big deal even if the urges to go swap fluids with a consenting adult exist. Heck, for a silly parallel that TNG "Outcast" episode makes more sense to justify celibacy (of a rather different sort) than the other claimed reason (which I also could qualify for FWLIW.) Test tube babies would bypass various risks in many sorts of ways... And if I were asked "Let's build a life together" instead of "Let's go have sex, I'm clean, honest!" after mentioning being on disability with "special medications, hint hint" several minutes earlier that's been way too often in my life and not just chatted up on by them but before I mention any other personal examples, or make generalizations as remarkably extravagant as "you cannot expect any unattached species to be celibate" (condensed), let's get to the next point:

    Oath of Celibacy being confirmed, per Lt Ilia, being another issue though one of admitted fascination. Why that concept was brought in, as everyone knows Kirk may be teaching love to scores of beings but he's never done it with his crew while on tour together, which is actually interesting. Though Picard had "Lessons" and also realized why you don't jump into the same sleeping bag with the crewmember that's the only available specialist and who might turn into a marshmallow by the planetary-size campfire she's analyzing by the end of the next scene... still an engaging story actually, it's in my top 40 of TNG, but I digress...

    Or they go insane or die, so says the script. The only times I know of when a species dies for not copulating is when it performs the deed and then gets literally eaten by the mate just afterward. But the melodrama was shoveled in high. ST3 also states explicitly "Vulcan males", upping the ante by suggesting Vulcan females don't go through this. Amok Time, if memory serves, didn't discuss sex that deeply. Just that if Spock doesn't get jiggy Spock will die. Makes one wonder how energy efficient it is to traverse the galaxy only to not have a convenient mate or adequate (um, "robot doll"?) nearby. The jokes I want to make involving a hand now, because, using the episode's same example as a(n amusing) correlation, salmon don't have hands and would probably do it in any stream if they wanted to, but as horny teen salmons they never found a place by the salty seashore to try doing it, too bashful and/or frightened I suppose... maybe that's where the phrase "Chicken of the Sea" came from? :guffaw: The "Spock is a glorified salmon" analogy used in the 1967 story wasn't a complete adaptation of one of Darwin's more interesting real life species, but it's a fun one nonetheless...)

    For audience jollies, nothing more?

    I'll admit, Worf had a couple moments early in TNG that were amusing for the intended reasons (considering early TNG is usually amusing for all the wrong ones), but they didn't put emphasis for sex as entire episodes or, far more dreary, entire seasons. A little can go a long way.

    Which a lot of people like and would defend them more than:

    100% agreed on that!! :):techman: If I had to choose, they're my favorite TV family (if not Ben and Jake), in part because they were given some actual depth and not the "Let me teach you about 'loooooove'," (character starts to undress very slowly), (commercial break starts, commercial break ends), (character looks at stopwatch) "Oh it's been 42 minutes, time for next episode, beam me up Scotty, I don't care how prematurely! (redresses as fast as possible and balls up the rest in arms as the transporter beam initiates) -- We didn't need to see them engaging in foreplay every minute or week to be interesting, though it doesn't hurt since every every other character got to do that almost every week or so (except for Geordi, even Data got more :alienblush:), and we saw them in some intellectually intriguing sci-fi situations.

    Situations better than wearing modified headphones to become mind-controlled with Wesley figuring it out with one hand while repairing Data's broken wire with the other. "Time's Orphan" is one of my favorites, even if it's a little contrived as to which timeline is right and who has rights (what, the Molly who lost 10 years due to an anomaly has no rights but the one who came back 10 years late has more and is going to suffer more? That's a bit iffy, but that aside since without that we wouldn't see the rest of the story, which makes up for its setup and without the setup we wouldn't get various moments of greatness, even the art by Molly of anthropomorphous take on the sky, which was a surprisingly cute moment on the part of whoever wrote that script to come up with that tidbit instead of the usually bland smiley-on-the-sun routine. It's an oddball story but a legitimately great mix of sci-fi, drama, and everything else, while not feeling phony - apart from the who-has-rights fluff shoved in.) Maybe I liked it more for the old trope of the kid raised by wolves (or "feral humans", there's a parallel that was done more interestingly in DS9 than in a certain season 4 TNG story...) At least they didn't try to update "Lord of the Flies". Imagine if VOY or ENT had. :D


    This is still a show that uses aliens as crude allegory and not as a documentary as such, so it's not unfair to treat the show as nothing more as allegory about the human condition until should extra-terrestrial beings in real life actually televise their introduction and ask "Hi there, do you have a cup of sugar or Grey Poupon?" :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  6. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think TOS is the best of the St series, not by a long shot. There are only three people who get a significant recurring role, Shatner's acting is... the less said about it the better. Spock's and McCoy's constant bickering gets really old toward the end. Some stories are really stupid and unimaginative. The deaths of the red shirts are met with too much indifference. A captain should be more affected when he loses members of his crew, no matter how "insignificant" they could be.
     
  7. ToyBoxComix

    ToyBoxComix Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The first two seasons of Enterprise are the best (minus the TCW stuff) and season 4 is overrated.

    I like the "humans bumbling around the galaxy" aspect of the first two seasons. For a series set halfway between First Contact and TOS, that's a good premise. They're out there with the best intentions but they really don't know what they're doing and they're stepping on a lot of toes and finding themselves in over their heads.

    Season 4 was trying too hard to make the show feel like a significant part of Star Trek. I didn't need a two-hour story explaining Klingon forehead ridges. Brent Spiner playing Dr. Soong's great grandfather was just too cheesy. There were some decent stories in there but the 2-3 episode arc format mostly made them feel stretched out.

    Season 3 was a noble first attempt at serialized Star Trek, but it just wasn't a great story. They spent a whole season trying to prevent the destruction of Earth which OF COURSE was never going to actually happen. Making the stakes too large sucks out all the suspense because there's no chance of the worst coming to be, especially in a prequel setting. (That's an issue I also have with Discovery.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
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  8. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    There's no chance of the worst happening because it's the end of EARTH!!! I mean Vulcan destroyed, I can live with that, but NOT EARTH!!! Never!!!
     
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  9. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

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    I like suspense (I really liked the Dominion war arc in DS9) but I think the destruction quota is getting out of control.

    Vulcan is destroyed, Romulus destroyed, Cardassia in ruins.
    Earth- attacked in Enterprise, tens of millions killed. Attacked in DS9. The Federation- occupied by the Klingons.


    It's too much when instead of a surprised reaction, you get a "eh" reaction to a mass destruction event.

    There is the risk of fans becoming immune to it, and it's used as a gimmick more than an actual story device.
     
  10. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    Well, Star Trek is very bloody from the very start. Remember that we first had the Eugenic wars that made millions of victims, presumably in the 1990s and then we'll have WWIII which should start in about 30 years and also make millions of victims. That's bad!!!
     
  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    We are way past that.
     
  12. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, that's one example of it, the Eugenics wars was hinted to be the "Big" WW3 that killed 90 million and was the one that changed everything, then TNG upped the ante by creating a separate WW3 that killed 600 million.

    So they mashed those two major wars into its history canon, and lot of times they even forgot what they did! That Voyager, Future's End episode was set in the mid 90's and there was no mention whatsoever of an Eugenics war. They couldn't keep up with it.

    That's not counting the catastrophes like Khan shooting up Starfleet head quarters, then later in the same movie crashing a huge ship into Starfleet command.

    I have to admit I had little to no reaction about Vulcan and Romulus being destroyed, and I should have. Before that, the Xindi attack on earth seemed more like a gimmick than a shocker. The main ones that did have an effect was what they did to Cardassia and the Dominion war itself.

    If the shock value is getting lower, the new shows and movies are going to do damage to themselves if they keep showing disaster porn. No one might really care.
     
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I completely see your point. I just think we past anyone caring, genuinely. I think disaster porn has become so common place in pop culture that it doesn't matter.
     
  14. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I never said that I was. I was saying that it was one of the options.
    How do you know? No Star Trek series has ever explicitly detailed what all of the exact rules for Starfleet are. Do you believe that we'll do away with the rules that we have about fraternization and sexual harassment that exist today? TOS' episodes with Janice Rand and TNG's "Lessons" show what a potentially horrible idea a relationship between a commander and a subordinate is.
    More than hinted. Outright stated. From "Space Seed":
    TNG's stating that World War III and the Eugenics Wars were two separate things are one of the biggest retcons in the entire franchise.
     
  15. unimatrix7

    unimatrix7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In ‘Elogium ’ Janeway explicitly stated that Starfleet had “always been reluctant to regulate people’s personal lives
    .” That was after she was told of two officers in a relationship.
     
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  16. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I take that to be McCoy correcting Spock, and he admitting his mistake.
     
  17. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    Seriously? Spock is a walking-talking encyclopedia. Find one case where he explicitly misremembered something. It's more likely McCoy adding useless info. like saying that WWII was against the Germans for example and Spock indulging him and saying that it was true.
     
  18. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

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    That's common explanation for it, but I tend not to believe it anymore. Taken for what it is, it sounds like McCoy was putting a sub name to a world war that Spock described. Records spotty, "whole populations bombed out" that sounded like TOS's idea of WW3.

    When TNG retconned it and added another WW3 that killed 600 million, they had downgrade it and provide an explanation that just mashed things up. No wonder it wasn't mentioned in Voyager when the crew time traveled to the mid 90's, when the Eugenics wars were supposed to be happening.

    They couldn't keep up with all the additions to the timeline.
     
  19. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The USA wasn't involved in the Eugenics Wars. That's why VOY's crew saw no evidence of it.

    As far as we know, fraternization is allowed in Starfleet, provided everyone involved gives their consent.

    This doesn't mean a relationship will actually work, though. Picard and Nella Darren couldn't, but it doesn't mean no one else can.
     
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  20. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    Plus they keep insisting in every series that Vulcans have perfect memories. They even say that on DS9, even though they hate Vulcans in that series. One, criminal, one asshole and then a serial killer, all Vulcans!! Yet even they say that Vulcans have perfect memories. Spock would never make a mistake like that. No way!!!