Unpopular Trek opinions game

[JonnyQuest037]

He knew Seven was out of his league

Let's face it, Seven is out of most people's leagues.

Let's see...

Non Sequitur: Harry is back on Earth with his girlfriend. What's the first thing that comes to his mind? "What am I doing here?". He can't wait to get back to a timeline where chances are he'll never see her again!* Does he agonize over leaving her for that other timeline? Nope, not one second!(*Given how far Voyager was from Earth back then, it was not an unreasonable assumption).

The Disease: Harry is "in love" with an alien girl. Does he even think about staying with her? Nope. He's "in love" with her but not enough to want to live with her...

Waking Moments: The crew is having nightmares caused by an alien attacker.
Tuvok dreams that he's naked and therefore humiliated in front of the whole crew.
Janeway dreams that her whole crew died because she didn't bring them home in time.
Tom dreams that the shuttle he's flying is about to crash!

What's Harry's nightmare? That he's being kissed by Seven!!! A girl he says he has a crush on!!!

If these are not symptoms of gayness then I don't know what is.

Those aren't examples of homosexuality. Those are examples of bad writing.

Being nervous around women is not the same as being sexually attracted to a man.

Quoted because this bears repeating.

 

[Delta Vega]

Yes indee JQ, Seven is out of most men's league
Fuck knows how she ended up with Chakotay

 

[Discofan]

Yes indee JQ, Seven is out of most men's league
Fuck knows how she ended up with Chakotay

Note that it's a last episode thing. In "Natural Law", only two episodes earlier, they spend all the time on a planet together and there isn't even a hint of anything between them.

 

[Delta Vega]

Note that it's a last episode thing. In "Natural Law", only two episodes earlier, they spend all the time on a planet together and there isn't even a hint of anything between them.

Yep, it's all very rushed
As if someone said "What are we going to do with poor Seven and that other dude?"

 

[Lord Garth]

Not the third one. Being kissed by a beautiful girl is not a stuff of nightmares, not to any straight (unengaged*) man at least.

"Waking Moments" premiered on January 14th, 1998. That's when Kim had the dream about Seven, IIRC. "Hunters", the first episode after "Message In a Bottle", when they were waiting for letters from home, premiered on February 11th, 1998. Until he finds out that Libby has moved on, he's still technically engaged to Libby and wouldn't want to betray that. Above all, he generally thinks he should do what he's "supposed" to do and can't cope with doing anything else. More on that later.

And even though he's attracted to Seven, he doesn't know what to do about it. Nightmares are a manifestation of people's inner thoughts. @fireproof78 can correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm not a Psychology Major, but that's generally been true in my own experience. I can trace any nightmare I ever had to something else that was going on, and the nightmare is a metaphor. So he's trapped in a situation he's thinking about but can't do anything about; and then he's embarrassed to admit it when Torres and Paris ask him about it.

Non Sequitur: Harry is back on Earth with his girlfriend. What's the first thing that comes to his mind? "What am I doing here?". He can't wait to get back to a timeline where chances are he'll never see her again!* Does he agonize over leaving her for that other timeline? Nope, not one second!(*Given how far Voyager was from Earth back then, it was not an unreasonable assumption).

I think the first thing anyone would think of is, "How did I end up in this drastically different situation?!" If my situation suddenly changes without explanation, I'd like to know why, and I wouldn't be able to relax or focus on anything else until I did.

The rest, as has been said, is sloppy writing. But, to cover for it, it's possible that Libby was the one driving that relationship and Kim's parents thought Libby would be perfect for Harry, so encouraged him to get engaged. And he was in his early-20s. He -- and his parents might've -- seen it as another item in the checklist. Career? Check. Getting Married? Check. Have 2.3 kids? Next. He was doing everything he thought he was "supposed" to do, not necessarily what he wanted. He seems like that kind of person. He just does whatever he thinks he's supposed to do, to make everyone else happy.

The Disease: Harry is "in love" with an alien girl. Does he even think about staying with her? Nope. He's "in love" with her but not enough to want to live with her...

That's Voyager Season 5 territory. That's after Jeri Taylor left the show, Brannon Braga became showrunner, and when I started turning on B&B. At this point, the characters served the plot, not the other way around. Sometimes it turned out good, other times it turned out bad, and this episode turned out extremely bad. In "The Disease", Kim is written to be the teenager. Teenagers are in love all the time but don't want to live with each other. That's all I'm going to say about "The Disease". It's a shitty episode with no redeeming value and shouldn't be used in an argument for anything.

 

[Discofan]

"Waking Moments" premiered on January 14th, 1998. That's when Kim had the dream about Seven, IIRC. "Hunters", the first episode after "Message In a Bottle", when they were waiting for letters from home, premiered on February 11th, 1998. Until he finds out that Libby has moved on, he's still technically engaged to Libby and wouldn't want to betray that.

Also, even if he's attracted to Seven, he doesn't know what to do about it. Nightmares are a manifestation of people's inner thoughts. @fireproof78 can correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm not a Psychology Major, but that's generally been true in my own experience. So he's trapped in a situation he's thinking about can't do anything about and is embarrassed to admit when Torres and Paris ask him about it.



I think the first thing anyone would think of is, "How did I end up in this drastically different situation?!" If my situation suddenly changes without explanation, I'd like to know the explanation.

The rest, as has been said, is sloppy writing. But, to cover for it, it's possible that Libby was the one driving that relationship and Kim's parents thought Libby would be perfect for Harry, so encouraged him to get engaged. And he was in his early-20s. He -- and his parents might've -- seen it is another item in the checklist. Career? Check. Getting Married? Check. Have 2.3 kids? Next. He was doing everything he thought he was "supposed" to do, not necessarily what he wanted. He seems like that kind of person. He just does whatever he thinks he's supposed to do, to make everyone else happy.



That's Voyager Season 5 territory. That's after Jeri Taylor left the show, Brannon Braga became showrunner, and when I started turning on B&B. At this point, the characters served the plot, not the other way around. Sometimes it turned out good, other times it turned out bad, and this episode turned out extremely bad. In "The Disease", Kim is written to be the teenager. Teenagers are in love all the time but don't want to live with each other. That's all I'm going to say about "The Disease". It's a shitty episode with no redeeming value and shouldn't be used in an argument for anything.

I am sorry but you can't have it both ways. He's either in love with Libby in which case "Non-Sequitur" doesn't make a lick of sense or he's not in which case his still feeling obligated toward her after six years of separation is what doesn't make sense. I mean he's kissed by Seven, it's no big deal. I don't consider myself exceptional but I've lost count of the women I've French kissed (I use that expression on purpose so that there's no ambiguity) in my life and it's likely over a hundred (I haven't slept with all of them though). I would definitely not consider being kissed in my dreams by a hot babe like Jeri Ryan to be a nightmare, not in a million years!!!

 

[Lord Garth]

I am sorry but you can't have it both ways. He's either in love with Libby in which case "Non-Sequitur" doesn't make a lick of sense or he's not in which case his still feeling obligated toward her after six years of separation is what doesn't make sense. I mean he's kissed by Seven, it's no big deal. I don't consider myself exceptional but I've lost count of the women I've French kissed (I use that expression on purpose so that there's no ambiguity) in my life and it's likely over a hundred (I haven't slept with all of them though). I would definitely not consider being kissed in my dreams by a hot babe like Jeri Ryan to be a nightmare, not in a million years!!!

He doesn't feel obligated toward her after six years. At no point did I mention the seventh season at all. In fact, "The Disease" is a fifth season episode and he has no problem pursuing other women. Before "Hunters", he feels like he has to stay committed to Libby. After "Hunters", he doesn't. There's a clear dividing line. When he knows it's over, that's when he thinks it's safe to move on. Until then, he feels he can't.

As for the french kissing, not everyone is as promiscuous as you. Even if most people were, Kim doesn't strike me as that type.

 

[Discofan]

He doesn't feel obligated toward her after six years. At no point did I mention the seventh season at all. In fact, "The Disease" is a fifth season episode and he has no problem pursing other women. I say that in my post. Before "Hunters", feels like he has to stay committed to Libby. After "Hunters", he doesn't. There's a clear dividing line. When he knows it's over, that's when he thinks it's safe to move on. Until then, he feels he can't.

As for the french kissing, not everyone is as promiscuous as you. Even if most people were, Kim doesn't strike me as that type.

I take exception to that term: "promiscuous" It's not a neutral word, it's one used to offend. I must say I was a little dismayed by that response which is why it took me some time to reword my answer. Plus as an FYI for the lesson givers, English is only my fourth language.

 

[Kor]

I would say that for the 1990s American viewing audience, there were cultural expectations that Harry would not be a virile "ladies' man" like some of the other protagonists (Tom, for instance).

Harry was the stereotypical meek, non-threatening, mildly nerdy "model minority" Asian-American who who was competent and industrious at technical stuff and classical music, while generally playing it safe and perfectly falling in line with the rules and lacking a sense of individual drive and initiative (hence never pushing to go beyond Ensign rank or advance his role on the ship), and to top it all off was hopelessly romantically awkward and inept, bordering on asexual. Being of similar heritage myself, I always found the depiction somewhat insulting.

Kor

 

[Discofan]

I would say that for the 1990s American viewing audience, there were cultural expectations that Harry would not be a virile "ladies' man" like some of the other protagonists (Tom, for instance).

Harry was the stereotypical meek, non-threatening, mildly nerdy "model minority" Asian-American who who was competent and industrious at technical stuff and classical music, while generally playing it safe and perfectly falling in line with the rules and lacking a sense of individual drive and initiative (hence never pushing to go beyond Ensign rank or advance his role on the ship), and to top it all off was hopelessly romantically awkward and inept, bordering on asexual. Being of similar heritage myself, I always found the depiction somewhat insulting.

Kor

If you don't mind my asking what do you mean by "similar heritage"? It could mean many different things in that context.

 

[Kor]

If you don't mind my asking what do you mean by "similar heritage"? It could mean many different things in that context.

The East Asian cultural sphere, which Hollywood still lumps all together into a big catch-all category. ...but I digress. At the risk of perpetuating more stereotypes, Asian cultures do favor a much more conservative approach to romantic matters than, say, Western Europeans. Even Asian popular movies and TV depict a romantic ideal of a lifelong romantic partnership rather than having short-term casual relationships. An intimate kiss (like in his nightmare) would be a sign of a profound and lasting bond, saved for somebody who you are absolutely sure is "the one." (And believe me, such cultural values don't go away just because Harry's family lived in North America). It was rather overboard for Harry to be so romantically inept. If he was committed to Libby, then he should have been depicted as a grown-up who was confident and sure of himself in that commitment, and not turn into a puddle like an infatuated teenager every time he was around Seven, and not have a fling with some alien he just met.

Kor

 

[Discofan]

The East Asian cultural sphere, which Hollywood still lumps all together into a big catch-all category. ...but I digress. At the risk of perpetuating more stereotypes, Asian cultures do favor a much more conservative approach to romantic matters than, say, Western Europeans. Even Asian popular movies and TV depict a romantic ideal of a lifelong romantic partnership rather than having short-term casual relationships. An intimate kiss (like in his nightmare) would be a sign of a profound and lasting bond, saved for somebody who you are absolutely sure is "the one." (And believe me, such cultural values don't go away just because Harry's family lived in North America). It was rather overboard for Harry to be so romantically inept. If he was committed to Libby, then he should have been depicted as a grown-up who was confident and sure of himself in that commitment, and not turn into a puddle like an infatuated teenager every time he was around Seven, and not have a fling with some alien he just met.

Kor

I see. I wasn't aware of these stereotypes and of the cultural influences. This changes things.

For example, I am the son of an immigrant, yet other than for my linguistic abilities I am culturally equivalent to French people who've been here for generations. People I don't know don't realize that my parents were born and raised abroad unless I say so. Hell, we even have a former president whose parents were immigrants. I don't much about him as I personally dislike him intensely but at least I know that.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

He married a woman in Before & After.

If being shy around women but fantasizing about them in your dreams is a symptom of homosexuality, then 75% of male protagonists in entertainment history are gay.

Also, if a show’s main character not wanting to leave the setting for a romance of the week means you’re gay, 95%.

 

[Discofan]

He married a woman in Before & After.

If being shy around women but fantasizing about them in your dreams is a symptom of homosexuality, then 75% of male protagonists in entertainment history are gay.

This is a crude straw man as I have never said anything like that.

Harry is not fantasizing about Seven kissing him, he's having nightmares about it. Nightmares are not my idea of fantasy.

Also, if a show’s main character not wanting to leave the setting for a romance of the week means you’re gay, 95%.

This is even a cruder straw man, and therefore has nothing to do with anything I said.

Have a nice day!

 

[Discofan]

As for the fact that main characters never leave the ship for a "romance of the week", there's always a good reason for that or at least there should be, otherwise the story is just shit.

For example, in Unforgettable, the woman leaves the ship because she doesn't remember a thing about Chak and wants nothing to do with him, plus later Chak also forgets about her and all that's left is a piece of paper that he likely discarded as meaning nothing to him.

In Future's End Tom has to leave Rain Robinson as they are from different times and she could very well be his great great... grandmother; Causing a catastrophic paradox.

When Harry doesn't follow the woman he says he loves, there's no reason given whatsoever!!! He's like Romeo saying to Juliet, Ok, we can part now, see ya!!!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Your arguments have basically boiled down to “He doesn’t have a girlfriend. Except those times he does which don’t count.”

You argument for The Disease is basically saying that because a main character didn’t leave the show for a girl he must not like girls. That’s just a poor argument. There’s also no reason to think all dreams in Waking Moments were nightmares. The other ones weren’t all scary until the weird alien showed up. And Non Sequitur? Because when all reality changed his girl was not his absolute first thought, he doesn’t care about her?

There’s no reason whatsoever to think Kim doesn’t like girls which does not apply equally to all shy males.

In the utopian 24th century, if Kim were gay you don’t think he’d be open about it?

 

[Discofan]

...

In the utopian 24th century, if Kim were gay you don’t think he’d be open about it?

In the utopian 24th century I would expect a few of the characters to be openly gay. The fact that none of them are is a definite problem.
By supposing Harry to be gay I am actually giving credits to the writers, trying to do stealthily what they don't dare to do openly. That may not be much but it's definitely better than nothing.

By supposing Harry to be gay. I am giving his character more depth and complexity than he would be as a straight one. Without unexpressed gayness, all you're left with Harry is a dull and awkward person, awkward around women, awkward around his superiors, awkward around his underlings, awkward around people.

He starts by getting taken by Quark, saved only by Tom's intervention, and seven years later he still gets tricked by Neelix into drinking some crap that makes him sick. The man hasn't evolved an iota!

 

[Prax]

Harry is totally straight...


...but he is also a square.

 

[Lord Garth]

I've got a boring one you all can agree or disagree with.

I think four years was too long of a wait between Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness. To keep the momentum going, I think they should've found a way to stick to every two years, at least for the first few. 2009, 2011, 2013, and then I think they would've been in a better position to go longer and wait three years to put out a fourth film for the 50th Anniversary in 2016.

 

[BillJ]

I've got a boring one you all can agree or disagree with.

I think four years was too long of a wait between Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness. To keep the momentum going, I think they should've found a way to stick to every two years, at least for the first few. 2009, 2011, 2013, and then I think they would've been in a better position to go longer and wait three years to put out a fourth film for the 50th Anniversary in 2016.

Not sure this would qualify as an unpopular opinion?