That's not just thin. It's anorexic
Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread
- Thread starter bbjeg
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I hate to use a cliche, but the phrase "Keep it simple, sir" applies here.
The simplest and easiest-to-grasp conception of time travel as it relates to the resolution of Cap's story as presented across the entirety of the MCU and as 'framed' by Endgame (based on the spoilers I've read) is that his "future" self always existed in the "past" of the MCU at the same time as his " present" self and that the conscious act of traveling back in time and choosing to stay caused the timeline to "sync" itself onscreen.
Or to put it another way, "I knew I could do it because I'd already done it".
The simplest and easiest-to-grasp conception of time travel as it relates to the resolution of Cap's story as presented across the entirety of the MCU and as 'framed' by Endgame (based on the spoilers I've read) is that his "future" self always existed in the "past" of the MCU at the same time as his " present" self and that the conscious act of traveling back in time and choosing to stay caused the timeline to "sync" itself onscreen.
Or to put it another way, "I knew I could do it because I'd already done it".
Do we? We know he went back and danced with Peggy, had a little smooch and all. And we know that Old Steve is wearing a wedding ring. Anything beyond that is supposition.
Yes, we do. It's common sense based on what's shown in the movie. The idea that Steve went and married someone else has no basis in any MCU film and is a complete stretch.
Exactly. We're not splitting atoms here. This is a very basic story progression which was built up, not just in Endgame, but from the first Cap flick. These ideas that Steve is using other time travel options or jumping through the multiverse as an old man have literally zero in story explanation and make no sense at all.
QFT.
That's pretty easy to understand even for somebody like me who hasn't actually seen Endgame.
Because he could. Maybe he found out that S.H.I.E.L.D. or someone had found a way to jump between realities, and decided he wanted to go to his original timeline to be at Tony's funeral and see his friends one more time.
I don't really see where Steve came from another reality, is really that much harder to understand than, Steven went back in time and lived another life in secret.
That's not the same thing as knowing something for a fact. I'm not saying they didn't marry, I'm just saying that you can't state it as a fact. It's a supposition.
But there's NO WAY to get to your own past. If it's physically impossible to have ever gotten there, how can you have ever been there?
2012- 2024... Steve is 12 years older.
Young Peggy would take one look at him and say "Shit, are you Steve's dad?"
Nope. Pretty much every word of that is wrong. It makes 100% sense and is explained by things central to the film.
theenglish said:
Except that's not how the time travel in the movie works, we were told that outright. Again, his job is not to "protect the timeline", it's to return the stones. The main timeline does not need to be protected according to the film's own rules. The film says that timelines are problematic if stones are removed from them.
theenglish said:
Usually if the same fictional story includes time travel operating in two different ways, it's because the time travel is achieved using two different methods. ( Time Stone vs. Quantum Realm as an example. ) In this case, however, we're expected to accept that the same exact time travel technology worked one way for the retrieval of the stones yet worked completely differently in the specific case of Cap's return to Peggy. But why would this be the case? Why does branching time travel suddenly stop branching as long as Peggy Carter is involved? Put another way, why is Cap in his final time travel trip assumed to be locked into the nonsensical "whatever you choose to do, it must have already been that way" zone, when the same paradigm does not apply to other time travel in the film?
Both of those comments are in the movie.
You can't go back to your own past.
The stones regulate the flow of time, and losing even one is detrimental. (skip ahead to 2.18 minutes)
You can't go back to your own past.
The stones regulate the flow of time, and losing even one is detrimental. (skip ahead to 2.18 minutes)
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I know I said I was done with this pointless shouting match, but I think this illustrates the fundamental sticking point.
Right here, you're going on the assumption that the usual fictional rules of time travel applies, when they do not. There was even a scene in the movie where they very explicitly refuted this notion and repeatedly explained the rules for this time travel story.
It doesn't matter if people knew or didn't know if Steve was Peggy's husband or not. It's immaterial. Steve isn't Schrodinger's Cat. Whether you look in the box or not, the universe has already made up it's mind and it's based on mass and energy interactions, not human awareness.
Put it this way: if Steve Rogers was Peggy's unnamed husband then it wasn't the Steve Rogers we know; it'd have to be some Steve Rogers from another universe, one that for some inexplicable reason sat out the 20th century with his thumb up his arse, sitting back and watching his wife struggle against forces in utter futility. So fuck that Steve Rogers.
It's not physically possible for it to have been Steve. It's not a happy ending for it to have always been Steve. And it's not possible for things to have played out as they did with this guy just hanging in the background. It's not in his character, it's not good storytelling and the science as presented in the story doesn't support it.
And with that, I'm really really done! If you guys want to continue dying on this hill, have at it! Honestly, I don't see the point.
ETA: for those still struggling with the concept, here's a fun video by a guy that knows the actual science behind it.
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Nothing in that first clip says that you can't travel to your own past. And the second clip explicitly says that the new branch reality would suck not because it's missing a stone but because the Time stone is an all important weapon against the forces of darkness. There is absolutely nothing there to indicate that removing the soul stone or the power stone or any other stone would result in a terrible timeline.
'Time travel doesn't work like in the movies' is not an explicit refutation of every possible time travel conception. Avengers isn't even the first movie which used this alternate universe time travel concept, so it literally cannot invalidate all previous time travel movies. And the hypothetical rules I'm talking about are not 'the usual fictional rules of time travel', the fixed timeline concept is actually quite rare in hollywood and there is not a single fixed timeline time travel movie name dropped in Avengers as being a bad depiction of time travel. The movie does not refute this notion at all.
I literally already said that.
No, it wouldn't. And you have absolutely no clue what he might've been doing with his life.
It is physically possible, it is a happy ending, and he did not have to do nothing but hang in the background. There's a whole world beyond just the tiny fraction of things we've seen in these movies. There is no characterization problem, it's great storytelling and the science presented in the movie does not contradict it anymore than the script also contradicts the alternate universe theory.
The same people who penned that time travel explanation scene (which I don't think is as absolute as people think it is) have unequivocally said that Steve was always Peggy's husband, so I don't think people are analyzing those two truths correctly insofar as what ultimately happened with Steve.
No, just the ones that were 1) mentioned by name and 2) not consistent with the physics laid down in that very same scene and reiterated again and again. Both of which contradict what you're proposing. It's a non-starter.
Apparently he was in a coma from 1947 onwards since that would be the only thing stopping him from making a difference. They made a whole movie about how he can't sit by and watch.
None of those mentioned contradict what I'm saying. They're all stories about being able to travel to your past and then change the future you came from. They're not stories about going to your past and living there without ever being able to change the future you came from.
And the physics were never laid out in anything other than vague layman's terms and nonsense technobabble. They can be interpreted however you want.
"Ted, don't forget to wind your watch!"
That movie was 100% about predestined paradoxes. Rufus always went back to help them, Ted always stole his father's keys and left them under a bush and they always gave their love to the princesses.
They really can't. Specific explanation was quite specific.