No longer deep space, renaming DS9

[Discofan]

So if Aliens landed on Earth in 1700, humanity would have no right to object to them doing whatever they wanted here?

And defending the theft of Native American land as perfectly acceptable isn't exactly a good look. Reparations may not exactly be feasible financially and that's without even mentioning the questionable morality of holding today's generation responsible for choices made by people who lived hundreds of years ago, but none of that makes the European colonial land grabs morally acceptable.

I am not defending that. I think the claim of the Native Americans is a great deal more legitimate since they really occupied the entire continent and that it had been taken from them through war and successive massacres, not to mention deception. And the excuse of "it's not me that stole it so I own it." it doesn't have much weight with me. Stolen goods remain stolen goods even if they have changed hands several times. The Americans granted themselves immunity and/or they just ignored the problem or pretended that there wasn't one. Anyway, the Baku may have a legitimate claim for the land that they occupy, but as I said, it's only a microscopic portion of the planet!!! If you own 0. 0001 percent of a company that doesn't give you the right to dictate policy, now, does it? Let's just say they own the part of the planet that they occupy, which must not be very large since they don't have mechanized vehicles.. Give them twice that surface on any other planet with a similar weather pattern and voila. They will have no right to complain. As I said the rest of the planet doesn't belong to them and the portion they "own" is not significant enough to make them owners of the entire planet!!! Not by a long shot!!!

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I am not defending that. I think the claim of the Native Americans is a great deal more legitimate since they really occupied the entire continent and that it had been taken from them through war and successive massacres, not to mention deception. And the excuse of "it's not me that stole it so I own it." it doesn't have much weight with me. Stolen goods remain stolen goods even if they have changed hands several times. The Americans granted themselves immunity and/or they just ignored the problem or pretended that there wasn't one. Anyway, the Baku may have a legitimate claim for the land that they occupy, but as I said, it's only a microscopic portion of the planet!!! If you own 0. 0001 percent of a company that doesn't give you the right to dictate policy, now, does it? Let's just say they own the part of the planet that they occupy, which must not be very large since they don't have mechanized vehicles.. Give them twice that surface on any other planet with a similar weather pattern and voila. They will have no right to complain. As I said the rest of the planet doesn't belong to them and the portion they "own" is not significant enough to make them owners of the entire planet!!! Not by a long shot!!!

Except if you go by the 'stolen land is stolen land' precedent then literally every civilization on earth would be required to uproot itself because stealing land was an extremely common means of aquiring it throughout history. It's just not possible to rewind history to undo all the bad shit that people did hundreds and thousands of years ago. All that you can do is to try to stop the bad shit happening even more going forward. And yeah, that really ought to include giving some stuff back to Native Americans, too, and it's pathetic that it hasn't been done - but it's also utterly insane to think that giving the entire continent back to them would be a fair and reasonable solution, since it would literally create one of the largest refugee crises in human history.

And I don't care if you think they own enough of the planet or not. Their home is on the planet and they absolutely do get a say in whether the entire planet is *rendered uninhabitable* or not. At the very least an opportunity to discuss it directly with the Federation Council. If the Federation were establishing a medical colony somewhere else on that planet, your argument might almost make sense (which is assuming the Baku would have even objected to that in the first place, which we don't even know).

But what the Federation actually tried to do was kidnap them in secret and conceal their changed circumstances from them without regard to the potential danger that could put them in. Even if you're determined to view the situation as Eminent Domain where the Federation legally holds the rights to the territory (which the movie never proves) and has a clear overriding 'public good' reason for needing to make the planet uninhabitable (which the movie never proves), the Federation actions would still be blatantly illegal as they make zero provisions for fair notification, due process or appeals of any kind, and they literally start shooting at civilians for the 'crime' of running away from people who are trying to kidnap you (having been provided no notification whatsoever of the Federation's so called 'legal right' to remove them).

In any case, you can (obviously) keep your corporate theory all you like, but based on actual Star Trek precedent I feel pretty much 100% confident that if the Baku were allowed an actual day in court to challenge the Federation's claim to the system that Federation laws would clearly uphold their claim over the Federation's every day of the week and twice on sunday. They got there first and the prime directive (which contrary to Admiral Idiot's suggestion, clearly applies in some way to all foreign civilizations, not just indigenous ones, as TNG established over and over again) does not allow the Federation to dictate what the 'right' way of exercising their territorial rights over their own planet is. Not to mention all the so called 'standards' of 'not being indigenous', 'not having high population' and 'not having widespread territory development' can just as easily be turned around to invalidate any number of *Federation colonies* we've seen over the years.

 

[Discofan]

Except if you go by the 'stolen land is stolen land' precedent then literally every civilization on earth would be required to uproot itself because stealing land was an extremely common means of aquiring it throughout history. It's just not possible to rewind history to undo all the bad shit that people did hundreds and thousands of years ago. All that you can do is to try to stop the bad shit happening even more going forward. And yeah, that really ought to include giving some stuff back to Native Americans, too, and it's pathetic that it hasn't been done - but it's also utterly insane to think that giving the entire continent back to them would be a fair and reasonable solution, since it would literally create one of the largest refugee crises in human history.

And I don't care if you think they own enough of the planet or not. Their home is on the planet and they absolutely do get a say in whether the entire planet is *rendered uninhabitable* or not. At the very least an opportunity to discuss it directly with the Federation Council. If the Federation were establishing a medical colony somewhere else on that planet, your argument might almost make sense (which is assuming the Baku would have even objected to that in the first place, which we don't even know).

But what the Federation actually tried to do was kidnap them in secret and conceal their changed circumstances from them without regard to the potential danger that could put them in. Even if you're determined to view the situation as Eminent Domain where the Federation legally holds the rights to the territory (which the movie never proves) and has a clear overriding 'public good' reason for needing to make the planet uninhabitable (which the movie never proves), the Federation actions would still be blatantly illegal as they make zero provisions for fair notification, due process or appeals of any kind, and they literally start shooting at civilians for the 'crime' of running away from people who are trying to kidnap you (having been provided no notification whatsoever of the Federation's so called 'legal right' to remove them).

In any case, you can (obviously) keep your corporate theory all you like, but based on actual Star Trek precedent I feel pretty much 100% confident that if the Baku were allowed an actual day in court to challenge the Federation's claim to the system that Federation laws would clearly uphold their claim over the Federation's every day of the week and twice on sunday. They got there first and the prime directive (which contrary to Admiral Idiot's suggestion, clearly applies in some way to all foreign civilizations, not just indigenous ones, as TNG established over and over again) does not allow the Federation to dictate what the 'right' way of exercising their territorial rights over their own planet is. Not to mention all the so called 'standards' of 'not being indigenous', 'not having high population' and 'not having widespread territory development' can just as easily be turned around to invalidate any number of *Federation colonies* we've seen over the years.

I was just speaking of the Baku's claim to the planet and to the exclusivity of its benefits. I think you've just shown that the entire movie is stupid through and through and that the federation had no need to be sneaky in this matter. They had IMO a legitimate claim to the "particles" or whatever. They weren't interested in the planet, just the particles themselves. They could have done that out in the open and said that they were more than willing to compensate the Baku for their loss of land. They could have notified the Baku that their relocation would have benefited the health of billions of people. As I said if the Baku had said "We don't care what happens to billions of your people. They can die with festering boils all over their bodies for all we care." It would have removed all sympathy for these people. The movie is just stupid and inept!

 

[Nyotarules]

Oh...yeah. Trying to forget.

Granted it was wartime, billions of people were dying, and the planet didn't actually belong to the Baku anyway, but you do have an apt example.

After 300 years one gets squatters rights to the (as far as we know) empty planet, you do not move into someone house when they are living in it because you have the bigger gun..its not the 16th century.

What if one day your neighbor wishes to cut down your tree, and use the lumber for his own purposes.

You forgot to add he needs something on your property to cure nasty diseases, but his solution is to kidnap you and make your garden unhabitable for generations but too bad for you, since he is going to cure cancer. The ends justify the means!

 

[Nyotarules]

Not to mention all the so called 'standards' of 'not being indigenous', 'not having high population' and 'not having widespread territory development' can just as easily be turned around to invalidate any number of *Federation colonies* we've seen over the years.

So true, this would solve the DS9 Maquis problem overnight, a 'go back to where you hailed from' message by the Cardassians might go down nicely with those pesky colonising humans.

 

[Discofan]

After 300 years one gets squatters rights to the planet, you do not move into someone house when they are living in it because you have the bigger gun..its not the 16th century.

You forgot to add he needs something on your property to cure nasty diseases, but his solution will make your home unhabitable for generations but too bad for you, since he is going to cure cancer. The ends justify the means!

Yeah, when you inconvenience 600 people to save the lives of billions, you're damn right that the end justifies some means. I object to the sneaky way that they adopted, which is more suitable to a thief than to a so-called federation but had they proceded in the open and not allied themselves with criminals like they did their goal was perfectly legitimate and even laudable.

 

[Nyotarules]

Yeah, when you inconvenience 600 people to save the lives of billions, you're damn right that the end justifies some means. I object to the sneaky way that they adopted, which is more suitable to a thief than to a so-called federation but had they proceded in the open and not allied themselves with criminals like they did their goal was perfectly legitimate and even laudable.

So if a Star Trek alien race decided they needed all the lovely water on Earth to give life to their dying lifeless planet where trillions lived but it meant moving all those humans where only billions lived then that would be a great moral story? Right?

Hydra in Avengers wanted to bring peace on Earth to billions by only killing a few million.. Great idea, hail Hydra!

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I was just speaking of the Baku's claim to the planet and to the exclusivity of its benefits. I think you've just shown that the entire movie is stupid through and through and that the federation had no need to be sneaky in this matter. They had IMO a legitimate claim to the "particles" or whatever. They weren't interested in the planet, just the particles themselves. They could have done that out in the open and said that they were more than willing to compensate the Baku for their loss of land. They could have notified the Baku that their relocation would have benefited the health of billions of people. As I said if the Baku had said "We don't care what happens to billions of your people. They can die with festering boils all over their bodies for all we care." It would have removed all sympathy for these people. The movie is just stupid and inept!

Yeah, when you inconvenience 600 people to save the lives of billions, you're damn right that the end justifies some means. I object to the sneaky way that they adopted, which is more suitable to a thief than to a so-called federation but had they proceded in the open and not allied themselves with criminals like they did their goal was perfectly legitimate and even laudable.

I agree the movie is stupid and badly written. I still don't agree Federation law would truly fit your 'standards' at all, as they go against almost every previous Trek example I can think of.

And the particles were not going to save anyone's life. They fixed a handful of birth defects (which could mostly be dealt with using Federation science, anyway) and extended life spans (Federation species already have very long lifespans anyway). The medically hyper-advanced Federation being willing to invade the Baku for these particles is like Saudi Arabia invading someone else for oil.

 

[Discofan]

So if a Star Trek alien race decided they need all the lovely water on Earth to give life to their dying lifeless planet where trillions lived but it meant moving all those humans where only billions lived then that would be a great moral story? Right?

Hydra in Avengers wanted to bring peace to billions by only killing 7 millions.. Graet idea hail Hydra!

I never said anything about killing anyone. Relocation is not execution. Pretending that I did is not a fair way to discuss.

Your example doesn't have a foothold in reality. How could they be trillions on that so-called planet, if it's dying and lifeless? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Discofan]

I agree the movie is stupid and badly written. I still don't agree Federation law would truly fit your 'standards' at all, as they go against almost every previous Trek example I can think of.

And the particles were not going to save anyone's life. They fixed a handful of birth defects (which could mostly be dealt with using Federation science, anyway) and extended life spans (Federation species already have very long lifespans anyway). The medically hyper-advanced Federation being willing to invade the Baku for these particles is like Saudi Arabia invading someone else for oil.

Well, that's a different issue. To tell you the truth I have a really hard time believing in that so-called fountain of youth to begin with. Particles are like microscopic bowling balls thrown at incredible speeds at the molecules of your body. If they do anything, it is destroying your body in terrible ways at that Hoping to cure someone with nuclear particles makes about as much chance as performing facial surgery by firing bullets!! It's beyond idiotic.

Particles that make you younger!!! Do they each have a diploma in medicine? I mean that's not sci. fi. that's fairytale!!
Well, it's on a par with the Nexus that grants your every wish a allows you to live forever though...

 

[Nyotarules]

I never said anything about killing anyone. Relocation is not execution. Pretending that I did is not a fair way to discuss.

Your example doesn't have a foothold in reality. How could they be trillions on that so-called planet, if it's dying and lifeless? That doesn't make sense.

Does not matter if its a planet or a planetary system, taking over someone else property for your own personal gain is wrong, when you have no right to said property. The Baku were living there when humans were just recovering from WW3 and there was no Federation in existence. The Federation were acting as an imperial power, no better than real life earth examples of the past.

 

[Discofan]

Does not matter if its a planet or a planetary system, taking over someone else property for your own personal gain is wrong, when you have no right to said property. The Baku were living there when humans were just recovering from WW3 and there was no Federation in existence. The Federation were acting as an imperial power, no better than real life earth examples of the past.

The Baku were occupying a microscopic part of the planet. What possible claim could they have to the rest of it?

 

[Prax]

Has anyone mentioned that the who plan for the planet was a farce? And that the Sona just wanted revenge, and to take the benefits for themselves?

 

[Discofan]

Has anyone mentioned that the who plan for the planet was a farce? And that the Sona just wanted revenge, and to take the benefits for themselves?

Yes, and the Sona were criminals who trafficked in illicit drugs I think. So it's a bit strange that the Federation would associate with people like that, but that only shows how stupid this plot is. It doesn't make any sense. Like why would the Sona leave the planet in the first place when they realized that it made them age and decay? Had they moved say a thousand kilometers away from where the Baku lived, the latter would have no means of even knowing that they were there!!

 

[DonIago]

I'm going to go back to the fact that the Baku-Son'a situation was an internal matter between them and that, once the Federation were aware of that, they should have offered to back out of the Briar Patch until the situation was resolved one way or another.

The Son'a appeared technologically superior. OTOH, the apparently tech-inferior Baku managed to exile them (presumably off the planet entirely) once before, so...

That we never learn how the Baku exiled the Son'a is yet another issue I have with the premises the film presents us with.

 

[DonIago]

Do you think if Humanity had colonized Proxima Centauri B 300 years in the past and an alien race claimed it wasn't really ours because we didn't evolve there, that we'd just accept that and leave? Or would we see it as ours because we already lived there for 300 years?

I think the alien race would have a good point that we'd settled on the planet without possibly knowing the full scope of the situation. What if there was an intergalactic space treaty that was in danger of collapsing and resulting in war (including the destruction of Earth) because of the human presence on PCB? My point being, you can't just offer this kind of question in the abstract.

 

[Discofan]

I'm going to go back to the fact that the Baku-Son'a situation was an internal matter between them and that, once the Federation were aware of that, they should have offered to back out of the Briar Patch until the situation was resolved one way or another.

The Son'a appeared technologically superior. OTOH, the apparently tech-inferior Baku managed to exile them (presumably off the planet entirely) once before, so...

That we never learn how the Baku exiled the Son'a is yet another issue I have with the premises the film presents us with.

It's like the entire scenario had been written by drunk people. First the Baku while being medievalists (I mean only in medieval times was humanity so deprived of any kind of machinery) managed to chase some of their children off the planet. That's already stupid in and of itself but if you answer that they still retain some machines (for emergencies I guess or whenever they are tired of toiling 14 hours a day to barely feed themselves!!) then the duck blind becomes stupid since they would have the means to see through it.

 

[Prax]

I mean only in medieval times was humanity so deprived of any kind of machinery

 

[Discofan]

You disagree? BTW, the vegetable patch looks like it could feed all of them for a couple of days top. I've seen more realism in B-movies from the 1950s.

 

[Prax]

You disagree?

of course