Why Was Riker Demoted?

[Discofan]

A captain who'd get a small ship could do unremarkable work, though useful nevertheless (Iam speaking of Starfleet, not the Navy). So without making any big mistake, he would not be noticed by his superior and get to command more complex and impressive ships. Say another captain is brilliant and goes on daring very successful missions, he'd be rewarded by bigger and bigger ships. It wouldn't make sense to me if the latter had to concede power to the former, even if the former is older in rank.

 

[J.T.B.]

A captain who'd get a small ship could do unremarkable work, though useful nevertheless (Iam speaking of Starfleet, not the Navy). So without making any big mistake, he would not be noticed by his superior and get to command more complex and impressive ships. Say another captain is brilliant and goes on daring very successful missions, he'd be rewarded by bigger and bigger ships. It wouldn't make sense to me if the latter had to concede power to the former, even if the former is older in rank.

That still doesn't make sense. If the superiors have a vacancy to fill commanding a bigger vessel, the first place they are going to look is at who's doing a good job commanding a smaller ship. If they don't know the strengths, weakness and overall performance of every captain under their command, they are incompetent.

 

[Discofan]

That still doesn't make sense. If the superiors have a vacancy to fill commanding a bigger vessel, the first place they are going to look is at who's doing a good job commanding a smaller ship. If they don't know the strengths, weakness and overall performance of every captain under their command, they are incompetent.

Your remark doesn't follow my statement. I said that one Captain though younger in rank does more impressive work and is therefore rewarded with bigger and bigger ships, while the other does unremarkable work and stays with his small ship. In the end, the captain with the small ship has no right to take over the other captain's bigger ship because he's less competent than the younger captain... Am I not clear enough?

 

[Timo]

Letting COs stagnate is a Trek feature, but presumably not a common RW one. Moving onto bigger ships would be something expected of the COs, with commeasurate increase in competence - or then they're out. They don't get to spend twenty years in a tub unworthy of their seniority.

According to "Brother", if the situation becomes muddled, the skippers can sort it out in the field simply enough - it suffices for the senior CO present to declare his or her seniority and choose the ship best suited to his capabilities.

Except of course it isn't quite that wild: even though giving the best ship to the skipper in need was a standing rule, Pike got special clearance to evoke that rule from on high, or at least he claimed he did. Saru was kept in the dark deliberately, but this just highlights the fact that both vessels were within easy reach of the big bosses, at least communications-wise. A basically unheard-of situation ITRW of naval conflict.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

So if someone is not good enough to be promoted, he's let go?

 

[J.T.B.]

Your remark doesn't follow my statement. I said that one Captain though younger in rank does more impressive work and is therefore rewarded with bigger and bigger ships, while the other does unremarkable work and stays with his small ship. In the end, the captain with the small ship has no right to take over the other captain's bigger ship because he's less competent than the younger captain... Am I not clear enough?

Yeah I get it, I just don't find it believable. Where did the captain of the big ship start out, did they not put in time commanding smaller vessels? Why is the senior officer still in command of the smaller vessel while the junior officer has moved on to a larger and, presumably, more important one? If the senior officer had been doing good job, they should also have moved on to something bigger. If the senior captain is not more competent than the junior one, why keep them in command at all? Better to get them out of the way and put someone in there who will benefit from the experience. If the senior captain has not been developing his/her abilities and progressing to the point that they would be better able to take command of multiple vessels than a junior officer, then Starfleet's officer development process is a joke.

But there are a lot of aspects of movie/TNG era Starfleet personnel practices that I don't find believable.

So if someone is not good enough to be promoted, he's let go?

Should be, yeah. Make way for someone who is good enough.

 

[Discofan]

Yeah I get it, I just don't find it believable. Where did the captain of the big ship start out, did they not put in time commanding smaller vessels? Why is the senior officer still in command of the smaller vessel while the junior officer has moved on to a larger and, presumably, more important one? If the senior officer had been doing good job, they should also have moved on to something bigger. If the senior captain is not more competent than the junior one, why keep them in command at all? Better to get them out of the way and put someone in there who will benefit from the experience. If the senior captain has not been developing his/her abilities and progressing to the point that they would be better able to take command of multiple vessels than a junior officer, then Starfleet's officer development process is a joke.

But there are a lot of aspects of movie/TNG era Starfleet personnel practices that I don't find believable.



Should be, yeah. Make way for someone who is good enough.

This doesn't take into account everyone's personal talent. Some people don't adapt or understand things as quickly as others.

Take musicians for example Some youngsters will play the solo parts in great orchestras while others will be stuck as third violins all their lives. What's the difference between the two? Talent, genius... Should the third violin be let go? Hell no!! Without him there wouldn't be any orchestra.

Your way of thinking seems to imply that every captain has exactly the same amount of talent and learns things at the exact same pace. I find that irrealistic and counterproductive. It doesn't use the talented at the top of their abilities and it misses the fact that the less talented are also useful only to do different jobs than the most talented ones.

 

[GeorgeKirk]

Here's my take: Starfleet couldn't take the Enterprise away from Picard without publicly admitting how thoroughly the Borg had compromised him, which they didn't want to do--maybe to avoid blame for the bad stuff that happened. So when he decided not to retire after his ordeal (as they possibly hoped he would) they left Riker onboard as the XO to keep an eye on him and maybe take over if Picard turned out not to be up to the rigors of command any longer.

 

[J.T.B.]

Take musicians for example Some youngsters will play the solo parts in great orchestras while others will be stuck as third violins all their lives. What's the difference between the two? Talent, genius... Should the third violin be let go? Hell no!! Without him there wouldn't be any orchestra.

The ship's captain is the conductor, not a musician, and nobody in the orchestra is going to die if the conductor isn't good at their job. Even on a seemingly-unimportant vessel, enormous value is invested in the materiel of the ship and the lives of the crew. Space is dangerous, life-threatening situations can happen anywhere. No believable concept of Stafleet Command could afford to have less than the most competent officers available commanding their ships.

Your way of thinking seems to imply that every captain has exactly the same amount of talent and learns things at the exact same pace. I find that irrealistic and counterproductive. It doesn't use the talented at the top of their abilities and it misses the fact that the less talented are also useful only to do different jobs than the most talented ones.

Developing the officer's abilities are what the grades of ensign through commander are for. If using the talented at the top of their abilities is the overriding concern, that is an argument in favor of rotating officers out more frequently; there would be statistically less of a chance that someone would be stuck in a position where their peak effectiveness is less useful. You may think it is unrealistic, but it has been refined through hundreds of years of military command.

 

[Timo]

An interesting idea! Trusting Riker might be a bit awkward, though: even though during the Borg debacle he was the one not to trust Picard, he also risked a lot to rescue this enemy agent. Never mind that this turned out to be a winning move, and that killing Picard would probably have called for equally great effort. Riker is a yes man as far as the Admiralty is concerned - having Picard watched over by anybody else would probably be preferable.

It would have been a great twist to have Riker reveal his mission to Picard in some tight spot...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

Here's my take: Starfleet couldn't take the Enterprise away from Picard without publicly admitting how thoroughly the Borg had compromised him, which they didn't want to do--maybe to avoid blame for the bad stuff that happened. So when he decided not to retire after his ordeal (as they possibly hoped he would) they left Riker onboard as the XO to keep an eye on him and maybe take over if Picard turned out not to be up to the rigors of command any longer.

But then they send Picard on a very dangerous mission (practically suicidal according to Jellico and to US viewers, I mean how thoroughly screwed Picard was from the start!!!) that will likely aggravate his possible PTSD acquired with the Borg, they put Jellico in charge of the ship and NOT Riker as would have been expected and regardless of days of terrible torture put Picard back in the chair as soon as he returns!!! You find something coherent there? I don't.

 

[Discofan]

The ship's captain is the conductor, not a musician, and nobody in the orchestra is going to die if the conductor isn't good at their job. Even on a seemingly-unimportant vessel, enormous value is invested in the materiel of the ship and the lives of the crew. Space is dangerous, life-threatening situations can happen anywhere. No believable concept of Stafleet Command could afford to have less than the most competent officers available commanding their ships.

This has no relevance to my point whatsoever. My point is that the oldest in rank is not necessarily the most competent. Say a captain that is sent to a relatively calm part of the Galaxy will not acquire conflict experience as much as one who'll be sent in the most agitated ones. I mean how could it be otherwise? So sometimes the youngest is the most competent;

Developing the officer's abilities are what the grades of ensign through commander are for. If using the talented at the top of their abilities is the overriding concern, that is an argument in favor of rotating officers out more frequently; there would be statistically less of a chance that someone would be stuck in a position where their peak effectiveness is less useful. You may think it is unrealistic, but it has been refined through hundreds of years of military command.

Going through the ranks gets you some experience but not all of it. The people assigned to ships that go in calm parts of the Galaxy will likewise not acquire much conflict experience!!!

You may think that simulated experience is equivalent to the real thing. It isn't!

 

[Timo]

But stimulated experience ought to be. Which is why you send everybody everywhere, even if for a brief while. Or then discard them as assets. Heck, even conscript armies such as ours do that, to the extent they can.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

We know Ransom got his command and/or his fourth pip by relevaling that the Yridians still exist. Since Yridians appear in front of our heroes back in 2369 in "The Chase", without much comment, we get the late-end limit for his promotion. In turn, we learn of Janeway's fourth pip first in 2371 when she visits her future command in "Relativity", giving the early-end limit for her rank. And in "Shattered", another time-hopping adventure, she confirms she thinks of Voyager as her first command.

(There's mention of an earlier command of hers in "Revulsion", but it must have been modest for a mere Lieutenant to be able to dress her down for it - perhaps an away sortie of some kind for young Ensign Janeway? Not ship command, obviously.)

Timo Saloniemi

"Relativity" only implies that she might not have encountered ADM Patterson (her former maths prof, and possibly a friend of her fathers), since she was promoted (no latter than earlier that year, potentially significantly earlier):

[2371 Transporter room]

(Voyager is still under construction at Utopia Planitia. Janeway is greeted by an elderly Admiral.)
PATTERSON: You're late.
JANEWAY: Sorry, sir.
PATTERSON: What's the threshold of the H-two molecule?
JANEWAY: Fourteen point seven electron volts.
PATTERSON: Third brightest star in Orion?
JANEWAY: Viewed from where?
PATTERSON: Earth.
JANEWAY: Gamma Orionis, or Bellatrix, if you prefer the original Arabic name.
PATTERSON: Not bad. Now, give me a hug, Katie, that's an order.
JANEWAY: I wasn't expecting a pop quiz.
PATTERSON: Just wanted to make sure all those pips haven't made you forget you're a scientist first.
JANEWAY: How could they? I still have nightmares about your fractal calculus final.

However, you are correct that during the confusion the events of Shattered, Janeway implies that Voyager is/was her first command.

JANEWAY: That was an interesting experience.
CHAKOTAY: If it makes you feel any better, you're going to develop quite a knack for dealing with the Borg.
JANEWAY: You mean we're going to be seeing more of them?
CHAKOTAY: We'll run into them on a few occasions.
JANEWAY: Why do I get the feeling that's an understatement? It doesn't seem like my first command is shaping up the way I expected.
CHAKOTAY: In the middle of the journey of our life, I found myself astray in a dark wood, where the straight road had been lost.
JANEWAY: I didn't know Dante's Inferno was on the Maquis reading list.
CHAKOTAY: Actually, I borrowed your copy.
JANEWAY: My fiance gave me that book as an engagement gift. I've never lent it to anyone.
CHAKOTAY: Not yet. Anyway, I agree with Dante. If you always see the road ahead of you, it's not worth the trip.
JANEWAY: A soldier and a philosopher. Your intelligence file doesn't do you justice.

On the other hand, she's equally clear that she had one or more* previous commands during Tuvok's promotion ceremony in Revulsion:

[Mess hall]


(A dinner party is in progress. The senior staff are at one long table in the centre, other crew at tables around the outside.)
PARIS: So we rigged the security console so that every time Tuvok accessed the internal sensors it would play a little message.
KIM: Live long and prosper.
PARIS: No matter what button he pushed, live long and prosper.
KIM: Naturally, no one was available to fix the malfunction
PARIS: So Tuvok had to stretch his Vulcan patience to the limit for the rest of the day.
KIM: I swear you could hear him grinding his teeth from across the bridge.
PARIS: And just when he thought it was over, when he went back to his quarters and ordered a cup of Vulcan tea, the replicator says
KIM: Live long and prosper!
JANEWAY: The first time I met Tuvok he dressed me down in front of three Starfleet admirals for failing to observe proper tactical procedures during my first command. My human ego took a little bruising, but, of course, he was right. (she stands.) Over the past nine years I've come to rely on his insightful and unfailingly logical advice. For outstanding services, Chief Tactical and Security Officer, it's my pleasure to grant you the rank of Lieutenant Commander. Congratulations, Tuvok.
TUVOK: Thank you, Captain. Had I known this commendation entailed ritual humiliation, I might have declined. However, I accept it with gratitude and will honour the responsibility that comes with it. During my three years on Voyager I have grown to respect a great many of you. Others I have learned to tolerate. As your Tactical Officer, I will continue to do my best to ensure a safe passage home. As a Vulcan, I share the following sentiment. Live long and prosper.
JANEWAY: Bravo. Well deserved.

The quote also gives us an idea of the importance of the command (it's being reviewed by three admirals not junior staff officers, so it's probably important).

* Canon isn't entirely clear on this point, but IMO we can use Jeri Taylor's background from Mosiac and Pathways to fill in the gaps (unless and until anything better comes along). They make it clear that Tuvok could "dress her down" for her conduct because a review panel of three admirals delegated him the authority to do so, by assigning him the task, also Janeway is identified by the rank/title of Captain by said admirals and Tuvok during the enquiry (of her command of the Bonestell, which must have concluded prior the Bonestell's destruction and Wolf 359, and according to Pathways she (and Tuvok) then moved the Billings, and then Voyager (with a brief pit-stop at Jupiter Station (and SI?) for Tuvok between the second and third postings).

 

[GeorgeKirk]

But then they send Picard on a very dangerous mission (practically suicidal according to Jellico and to US viewers, I mean how thoroughly screwed Picard was from the start!!!) that will likely aggravate his possible PTSD acquired with the Borg, they put Jellico in charge of the ship and NOT Riker as would have been expected and regardless of days of terrible torture put Picard back in the chair as soon as he returns!!! You find something coherent there? I don't.

This is the same Starfleet that allowed Data to serve after he proved to be susceptible to being taken over by malevolent entities and crackpot scientists. Not to mention that they equip their starships with holodecks that have safeties that it's possible to deactivate. And once its officers get promoted to Admiral, they're like 75% more likely to go insane or become a criminal.

So yeah, Starfleet makes many questionable decisions.

 

[Kor]

Well... officers from biological species can be taken over by powerful non-corporeal telepathic entities too.

Then again, Pike approached Saru with "My ship is junk, I'll take yours, cuz I'm senior". That makes sense, too.
...

Saru was still Commander in rank, wasn't he? So Pike outranked him.

Kor

 

[J.T.B.]

This has no relevance to my point whatsoever. My point is that the oldest in rank is not necessarily the most competent. Say a captain that is sent to a relatively calm part of the Galaxy will not acquire conflict experience as much as one who'll be sent in the most agitated ones. I mean how could it be otherwise?

How about by rotating ships and people around so more officers can gain that valuable experience?

Going through the ranks gets you some experience but not all of it. The people assigned to ships that go in calm parts of the Galaxy will likewise not acquire much conflict experience!!!

You may think that simulated experience is equivalent to the real thing. It isn't!

It sounds like you're saying Starfleet Command should depend on luck. Luck that some officers will get the real-not-simulated "conflict experience" on the job that will properly develop their command abilities, and luck that those officers will then be in the right place at the right time to use those abilities when needed. While at the same time there would be a "second tier" of other captains on other vessels who didn't get those experiences, because, well, they'll keep to the quieter parts of space. But suppose they get in a Wolf 359 situation and a lot of those first-tier ships and captains get knocked out. Who's the reserve? Those second-tier guys who got the lower-level training and experience? Whoops!

Realistically the command authorities would create as many opportunities to develop skills and abilities as possible, for as many officers as possible.

 

[Timo]

"Relativity" only implies that she might not have encountered ADM Patterson (her former maths prof, and possibly a friend of her fathers), since she was promoted (no latter than earlier that year, potentially significantly earlier)

True enough.

However, you are correct that during the confusion the events of Shattered, Janeway implies that Voyager is/was her first command.

More specifically, her first starship command. Surely any officer would have numerous commands that have nothing to do with ships before their superiors trust them with one?

Spock's first command is a much more disputed thing: McCoy says the shuttlecraft mission in "The Galileo Seven" is it, and Spock doesn't argue. How could a Lieutenant Commander fail to have commands prior to this? But Janeway, of unknown rank, is not a problem in this respect: early on in her career, she may have commanded plenty of landing parties, just as would appear natural.

On the other hand, she's equally clear that she had one or more* previous commands during Tuvok's promotion ceremony in Revulsion

Which is what we would assume of any officer long before she is given a starship. Or even a shuttlecraft.

Significantly, the command in question appears to be of finite and modest length and scope, as it sounds pretty unlikely that failure to observe tactical procedures would be a critique aimed at an overall period of vessel command. If Tuvok has complaints in that respect, they would be as regards specific missions within the command. Unless the command is a mission, that is - say, an away team sortie or the like.

The quote also gives us an idea of the importance of the command (it's being reviewed by three admirals not junior staff officers, so it's probably important).

Nothing suggests the command would be reviewed. All we learn is that a lowly Lieutenant is dressing down Janeway, and three Admirals happen to overhear. If there were a review going on, surely the Admirals would be doing the dressing down.

Again, why make trouble when there is none? Janeway's first starship command is Voyager, as stated. Nothing contradicts that.

Saru was still Commander in rank, wasn't he? So Pike outranked him.

Which was my point. If Captain Ransom outranked Captain Janeway (by a few years, it would seem), why didn't he tell Janeway to hand over Voyager to him? We learned of the three DSC era conditions of which only one would need to apply - Ransom could say that he was the seniormost officer within thousands of lightyears, even though no Federation, non-Starfleet lives were at risk and no threat to the UFP was imminent. Although probably we have to assume there would be an additional condition, a permission from HQ or something. But then again, Ransom probably should start an argument about HQ being out of reach. Yet he just folds.

Which of course works as a tactic in his plan to evade, disable and if need be destroy Voyager. But a more straightforward takeover attempt ought to work, too; nothing would be lost if Janeway refuses, nothing much won when Ransom shies away from making the challenge.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

More specifically, her first starship command. Surely any officer would have numerous commands that have nothing to do with ships before their superiors trust them with one?

Probably, but it was Jeri Taylor's plan that Janeway had commanded two starships prior to taking command of Voyager, and the only evidence to contract this comes from dubious circumstances.

Spock's first command is a much more disputed thing: McCoy says the shuttlecraft mission in "The Galileo Seven" is it, and Spock doesn't argue. How could a Lieutenant Commander fail to have commands prior to this? But Janeway, of unknown rank, is not a problem in this respect: early on in her career, she may have commanded plenty of landing parties, just as would appear natural.

IMO, the most obvious answer for this is "McCoy is wrong" (and Spock has enough on his mind that he ignores it), as arguably commanding the Enterprise during any period where Pike/Kirk (and if necessary Number One) were off the ship (as Scotty does regularly during the series), particularly if he/they were out of contract. In fact, now I think about it, I can think of at least one applicable circumstance...

Nothing suggests the command would be reviewed. All we learn is that a lowly Lieutenant is dressing down Janeway, and three Admirals happen to overhear. If there were a review going on, surely the Admirals would be doing the dressing down.

Given Tuvok's obsessive respect for the chain of command, I can't see him randomly walking up to someone who outranks him (and as it was only nine previously it seems likely) and dressing them down, especially in front of their superiors. It seems far more likely and was the production intent, that his actions were instigated by the admirals in question (either as part of an offical inquiry or otherwise).

Which was my point. If Captain Ransom outranked Captain Janeway (by a few years, it would seem), why didn't he tell Janeway to hand over Voyager to him?

There's nothing in the episode itself that suggests that Ransom should outrank Janeway, though it could be argued that they seem to be bradly peers, hence why Janeway has to trot out the (fake regulation). In modern navy terms, Janeway would probably be a Commander, whereas Ransom would be either a Lieutenant Commander or Commander depending on Time-in-Rank and how you think the Nova-class compares [IMO a patrol boat or corvette a LTCDRs billet], so I'm not sure what the advantage to assume that he was, but didn't push the issue.

 

[Timo]

Probably, but it was Jeri Taylor's plan that Janeway had commanded two starships prior to taking command of Voyager, and the only evidence to contract this comes from dubious circumstances.

On the other hand, there isn't evidence to support this, either. Save for the ambiguous piece where emphasis is on this being early on; granted, we don't know when Janeway was born, but 2356 is the fixed date for this first meeting with Tuvok, and thus she's fifteen years the junior of her "Relativity" self.

IMO, the most obvious answer for this is "McCoy is wrong" (and Spock has enough on his mind that he ignores it), as arguably commanding the Enterprise during any period where Pike/Kirk (and if necessary Number One) were off the ship (as Scotty does regularly during the series), particularly if he/they were out of contract. In fact, now I think about it, I can think of at least one applicable circumstance...

...That Spock might be as eager to add to the official record as his sister's mutiny.

Theoretically, Spock is anti-command as late in the game as ST2:TWoK. Possibly he took steps to avoid being put in command before the fateful shuttle mission, and was as competent in this dodging as he is in everything else. Heck, perhaps "The Cage" is what soured the experience for him!

TOS adventures before the shuttle sortie involve "The Enemy Within" where Spock would insist that he never was in command (that is, that Kirk never was not); "What Are Little Girls Made Of" and "Dagger of the Mind" where Kirk went planetside but remained in constant contact (or his enemies created the impression he was in contact) and never stated that Spock would be in command; and "The Menagerie" where Spock's taking of command was illegal. FWIW.

Having the Murasaki exploration be Spock's first real command would be a nice way to explain the presence of the CMO there: he's out to spy on how the XO performs!

Given Tuvok's obsessive respect for the chain of command, I can't see him randomly walking up to someone who outranks him

Which is why it should be safe to assume Janeway did not outrank him. Back in 2356, this would appear natural.

...I'm not sure what the advantage to assume that he was, but didn't push the issue.

No advantage, I guess. It's just that the alternative is to assume that Janeway got the fourth pip several years before she got the ship, or perhaps that Ransom got the ship before the pip. Possibilities ITRW, but a bit unlikely in the Trek context where Captain-ranked underlings are rare and non-Captain COs even more so.

Timo Saloniemi