Fixed that for you.
The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?
- Thread starter crookeddy
- Start date
Fixed that for you.
That’s how long had passed?
Well, t seemed longer xD
It’s still a bit of a long time, to say the least.
Cutting the timescale down to month or so would feel better...its presumably that long to make sure it didn’t look like Luke pegged it in the middle of escalating tensions with the First Order.
Tbh, given how hard Ren was looking for the map to find Luke, it would have worked better if the First Order felt they were the true heirs to the rebellion and were looking to recruit Luke.
Like I say...motivations are a bit of a mess in the ST. You can get away with it in TFA, but by TLJ things need to be settling down a bit, as they were in Empire.
I am hoping there is. In episode 9.
And how many times?
You can only die trying once. It’s sort of it’s point.
But earlier he was hanging around Jakku. Where he picks up Rey in the Falcon after they run...which is where Ben Solo was at the exact same time.
It’s...messy. I am trying to give them more credit by suggesting Han was keeping tabs on Ben. Possibly. If you don’t me to, I am ok with that.
I just don’t get to see them trying in the movie, as you describe. There’s a lot you can sort of assume, or go to the novels (I just wont. I did my time with the old EU.) but there’s no feel for any of that onscreen.
I really should try multiquote again. It’s the way I read posts and reply. Sorry.
It’s just occurred to me that you can have virtually the same two movies with the tiniest tweak (and it’s one JJ has used before) to deal with some of the issues.
Have Luke exiled to the planet by the First Order and Kylo Ren. Snoke wants to turn him, or Ren just wants him to suffer feeling the Republics end through the force.
Have the map to find him be stolen from the First Order (a la the Death Star plans.)
Everything else would play out exactly the same, with a stronger reason for Luke being broken (he was defeated, couldn’t bring himself to strike down Kylo, and was captured) and missing, and why everyone is looking for either the map or Luke himself.
Again, I find myself wondering if they started with that in the mix, then threw it out for being too close to Death Star plans/rescue Princess Leia.
There’s stuff that can be tweaked with Han and Leia too, though frankly some tiny tweaks in motivation and exposition will do it. Maybe Leia can’t get republic backing to search for missing son and brother...maybe the republic will only search for Luke (suddenly justifying the existence of an elite military team behind enemy lines...aka the resistance.) but not Ben who is presumed dead. Maybe Han then says ‘sod it, I will do it myself’ and goes back to his shady life and it’s shady contacts (he’s smuggling for the First Order to find info). Hell, at that point have him walk out, take their daughter with him, and lose her and the Falcon...or so he thinks...dun dun dun.
All of this could still result in virtually the same two films, only with some better emotional stakes (Rey is reunited with her father, Han Solo, and is on the verge of him getting her brother back too...when it transpires Ben is Kylo Ren, strikes down their father and...well, we have seen the films. Incidentally this adds to the Leia stakes too, and makes the hug scene make so so much more sense. Literally the verge of a family reunion and boom.) all round.
Hell, you even get the bonus of a character drinking blue milk with their Uncle in TLJ.
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It is a movie. It’s the same thing as the Enterprise always being the only ship in range. Yes, it’s messy. Yes, there are a lot of conveniences for plot sake. But why when we have an entire universe with wizards and laser swords are we so concerned with why a character is nearby?
Han wasn't"hanging around Jakku"; he was taking a space journey that took him close to Jakku.
Yes, my off the cuff speaking manner certainly lacks semantic exactitude doesn’t it. How many parsecs away was he?
*shrug*
In this case, it’s because since he’s there anyway, the story may as well use that to improve the characters. I mean he’s right by the location of his missing son, and soon to be pseudo heir and daughter. Why not drop the pseudo and have him there looking for Ben. Changes nothing but everything, and keeps the characters intact...makes it look like the characters are driving the story a little, rather than the other way round with a hint of coincidence.
Having Han be actively looking for Ben completely changes his story and character because it deletes the tragic fallout and emotional blowback that Ben's fall caused for him.
It took me a while to make this connection, but Canon!Han reacted to Ben's fall in exactly the same manner that EU!Han reacted to Chewie's death: he ran back to what he used to be good at - smuggling - as a coping mechanism.
Granted, said "retreat into the familiar" lasted far longer in Canon than in the EU, but there's still continuity of character there.
It took me a while to make this connection, but Canon!Han reacted to Ben's fall in exactly the same manner that EU!Han reacted to Chewie's death: he ran back to what he used to be good at - smuggling - as a coping mechanism.
Granted, said "retreat into the familiar" lasted far longer in Canon than in the EU, but there's still continuity of character there.
Coincidence is a big part of Star Wars. The characters call it fate or destiny or the Force. Qui-Gon and company discovering Anakin. The clone of the bounty hunter that the stormtroopers were based off of being the bounty hunter who captures Han. The same exact droids continuing through nine movies and the family of which the fate of the galaxy always seems to rely upon.
It should have been Bens assumed death, before having the reveal who was under that mask come at the Maz scene. Bonus points if Ren was distracted by sensing his family nearby earlier on Jakku.
Or the scenario I painted where he is angry at the republic and over his loss of his best friend and son, and that’s why.
The fall into old patterns is yes, another old EU borrow, and one they shouldn’t have bothered with.
It’s just tiny tweaks that could have meant so much with so little change.
It's completely in line with who Han is in the Canon, though, especially when you throw in what we learned (retroactively) from Solo.
Yup. But some will deride that for small universe syndrome, and that’s why Rey shouldn’t be family to existing characters.
The problem is when you get too much..or it brings together Rey with the Falcon, to Solo, but not Ben...when he’s literally in the same place. You also have to buy an explanation awfully close to Han forgetting where he parked the Falcon, whilst at the same time having a tracking device on it...all on the same planet where the missing part of the map to find Luke is.
I am going to assume the Force was very pissed off that it had to use its will to do all that in the opening twenty minutes, and they *still* didn’t all come together.
It’s could just be...
Well, they made a blaster, not a lightsaber shall we say, when it came to writing these two.
That’s the one where he tries to do the right thing repeatedly, and does try to get someone he cares about out of the situation they find themselves in after he was separated from them.
Like I said...my tweaks would preserve a little of the hero, whilst still providing cause and sense for exactly the same events we saw on screen. The big point being...he came back at the end of episode 4. That and Empire is where we see him grow. Undoing that growth convincingly is tricky business, especially if you are going to tell and not show because of the jump jump. *shrug*
It needed a little more time in the Bacta tank if you ask me.
I agree wholeheartedly.
But Han didn't "forget where he parked the Falcon." He lost the Falcon. It was stolen from him. It, again, clearly is stated in the movie.
If you're going to be critical of these entries (which is fair!), I really recommend revisiting them.
Han didn't know that the Falcon was on Jakku and had given up actively looking for it.
And this is where you've completely missed the point.
Han retreating into the familiar as a trauma response isn't "undoing his character growth"; it's actually adding depth and nuance to his character by making him flawed in a relatable way and making him more than just an archetype.
I know. I was using forgetting where he parked as shorthand for all that, because it was an exceptionally silly chain of events. Han Solo had the Falcon stolen, never looked for it (with its homing device), left Princess Leia - the love of his life, never looked for Luke - his best friend, brother in law...both of whom he owed his life to, never went in search of his missing/fallen son....I am surprised he hadn’t accidentally shot chewie and had him stuffed and mounted before losing his front door keys down the back of him.
Show a broken character sure, show a flawed character, but...they made him inept. That wonderful ‘it’s all true’ speech is great in the trailer, but there’s a hint of ‘senile old man’ in the film because we have just shown the most inept hero and smuggler in the history of the galaxy...he’s even managed to get two gangs annoyed at him, and they are mixed up with the First Order, run by his son!
Honestly, he’s starting to look like a Discworld character.
Just to clarify, I like the films, I just think they could have been better with a nip and a tuck in the writing process, and a bit more attention. Which would have avoided a lot of polarisation.
We didn’t see the trauma. We are told about it. So it has less weight. So it doesn’t work particularly well, and needs rebalancing.
And it just pushed him further into archetype. He was the rogue with a heart of gold, the bad boy made good. Now he’s...a rogue again. In fact, it’s a good thing they didn’t go with the drinking angle, because then he would just be a stereotype...he’s perilously close to deadbeat dad as it is.
Doesn’t really fit in well to Star Wars tbh.
You have writer in your name. I would assume you of all people understand show don’t tell.
Made sense to me.. I thought I had a good idea if the trauma Luke and Han felt.