The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

[Ithekro]

Given Kylo Ren's violent outbursts in both films, my take is that he is mentally unstable, and unlike Anakin, is actively seeking out the Dark Side to fill his instability with purpose through some thought that me must completely control the Galaxy like Darth Vader was going to do once Palpatine was dead. He's pretty much worshiping Darth Vader (not Anakin Skywalker).

We know Snoke was pulling on Ben at some point since Leia and Han know about him and mention it. They sent Ben off to Luke's school over six years ago, seemingly to center him in the Force. Luke felt this darkness, and he says he's never felt anything like that before. This means that whatever darkness is in Kylo Ren is greater than that which was in Darth Vader and Palpatine. Think about that a moment. Kylo Ren's darkness is greater than Palpatine's? That some serious darkness if the Master Dark Lord of the Sith is overshadowed by a still incompletely trained Skywalker who is mentally unstable.

 

[suarezguy]

But not in the same way, not with that level of responsibility. Feeling like he had let the entire Jedi Order and the Galaxy down because of his mistake? That's a huge weight to carry around. To have the failure come from within his own family makes it even more devastating.

For that to be believable it very much in turn needs to be believable that Ben would go bad and why, not just because he had some bad influences around him and the filmmakers want him to be reminiscent of Vader especially that he betrayed & destroyed the Jedi (and we just found out why Vader went bad and betrayed and destroyed the Jedi).

Fans reasonably expected that Luke would be as good if not a better teacher than Obi-Wan and Yoda so for his mistakes to be as big and catastrophic would be difficult to believe and not consider an annoying story decision.

 

[jaime]

For that to be believable it very much in turn needs to be believable that Ben would go bad and why, not just because he had some bad influences around him and the filmmakers want him to be reminiscent of Vader especially that he betrayed & destroyed the Jedi (and we just found out why Vader went bad and betrayed and destroyed the Jedi).

Fans reasonably expected that Luke would be as good if not a better teacher than Obi-Wan and Yoda so for his mistakes to be as big and catastrophic would be difficult to believe and not consider an annoying story decision.

It is a bit frustrating thatbecause of story choices, the ‘return of the jedi’ Is a misnomer, because the Jedi essentially didn’t return. It’s all undone.

 

[BillJ]

He later on consistently and explicitly gave up on Ben when he explicitly never gave up on Anakin even when Anakin himself told him to leave him alone multiple times.

Umm... Luke spent about 45 minutes with Anakin across three films. I think you may be the one who needs a refresher course on the material.

 

[DonIago]

Y'know...I'm probably giving the writers too much credit here, but if we assume Snoke had Force-connected with Ben prior to the scene in Ben's bedroom (well, that sounds naughty...) then perhaps what Luke sensed wasn't actually Ben but rather Snoke through Ben, and Snoke even did it on purpose before Force-nudging Ben awake knowing that would push Ben over the edge.

 

[Ithekro]

It is a bit frustrating thatbecause of story choices, the ‘return of the jedi’ Is a misnomer, because the Jedi essentially didn’t return. It’s all undone.

Considering the title was originally "Revenge of the Jedi" the context could be altered depending on what "Jedi" is referring to. The Jedi as a thing return to fight the Sith in the form of Luke. Fine. The Jedi, as in the Chosen One....Anakin, returns when he turns back to the light and defeats Palpatine. The Jedi return as the "dominate" Force in the galaxy with the destruction of the Two Sith. But with only Luke (and a potential from Leia), it will be a long road to a greater return.

As it stands at the end of The Last Jedi, the Sith are gone, the Jedi are mostly gone....Rey is now the last Jedi, or perhaps she is the first of something new. Kylo Ren is probably the start of a new Dark Side group and the cycle will repeat....only the names will have changed and the lessons learned from the falls of both the Sith and the Jedi will be accounted for going forwards. That is, if they don't throw us another curveball in The Rise of Skywalker. Palpatine is the final wild card.

 

[EnderAKH]

Speaking only for myself on the topic of Leia, if my daughter who is currently 8 went on to be the leader of an army who slaughtered thousands if not hundreds of thousands, many personally, and was complicit in the destruction of an entire planet killing millions more which also happened to be the seat of my government, I would not be calling for her redemption, I would most likely be terribly saddened, but understood that she would have to be defeated and likely killed. And consider myself a failure as a parent for helping to generate this person.

 

[Campe]

Palpatine is the final wild card.

A hundred times this. Emperor Palpatine, Darth Sidious, has been pulling the strings the entire time. I think. We do not know his endgame but we know he has one. Is it the immortality he speaks of in Revenge of the Sith? Is it complete dominance over the galaxy? Whatever the case is, Sheev has been playing a long game. For sure.

He is ultimately responsibility for...
...The fall of Anakin Skywalker.
...The fall of the Jedi.
...The fall of the Republic.
...The rise of the Empire.
...The death of billions.
...The fall of the New Republic.
...The fall of Ben Solo.
...The rise of the First Order.

We have no idea how long he has been playing this game. Perhaps there is only one true Sith, and that is this PHANTOM MENACE.

 

[fireproof78]

I am sort of, kind of, happy..ish...with what we have. I just think it could have, and should have, been better. It’s also not suitable for kids partially cos of its nihilism when viewed as part of the wider saga.

I don't see the nihilism. Sorry. I see classic myth making, with the older generation struggling with their failures (real or perceived) and a looking back on their lives. All very archetypal, Jungian and Freudian.

Fans reasonably expected that Luke would be as good if not a better teacher than Obi-Wan and Yoda so for his mistakes to be as big and catastrophic would be difficult to believe and not consider an annoying story decision.

And Luke may have been. But, Luke is also his biggest critic, meaning the moment he hit failure he took it very personally and gave upon himself, and so, retreated. His mistake is big and catastrophic to him.

It is a bit frustrating thatbecause of story choices, the ‘return of the jedi’ Is a misnomer, because the Jedi essentially didn’t return. It’s all undone.

Well, as Lucas would state the title refers to Anakin returning to the light.

 

[EnderAKH]

Also, there is a BIG difference between the failure of a father, someone who you've been told your whole life was a pilot in the Clone Wars, who you have likely hero worshipped and built up to this mythical figure. Then he turns out to be the bad guys. You're crushed. But you can REDEEM him. MAKE him into that guy you hero worshipped as a kid. Versus... a family member who was put into your personal care, who you were responsible for, who you were teaching, who fell to the dark side. Not only do you blame yourself, you know in your heart your sister and best friend who were the kids parents blame you too. It's YOUR FAULT. What's worse, you were trying to live up to the legacy of your trainer, Yoda, and you failed him too. There is a HUGE difference between those two states, and that's where I would be. I would view the Dad situation VERY differently than the Nephew situation. One I am not responsible for, the other I directly am.

 

[jaime]

Speaking only for myself on the topic of Leia, if my daughter who is currently 8 went on to be the leader of an army who slaughtered thousands if not hundreds of thousands, many personally, and was complicit in the destruction of an entire planet killing millions more which also happened to be the seat of my government, I would not be calling for her redemption, I would most likely be terribly saddened, but understood that she would have to be defeated and likely killed. And consider myself a failure as a parent for helping to generate this person.

But if your father had been the same, but had also ultimately been redeemed?

Or if, as seems to be the case, it was keeping this a secret from them in the first place that had caused the situation, pretty sure you would want to be front and centre in solving this problem...one way or another.

Edit:
Also, as of the opening of TFA he hasn’t done that yet. He is part of the machinery that is building up to that.

 

[jaime]

Also, there is a BIG difference between the failure of a father, someone who you've been told your whole life was a pilot in the Clone Wars, who you have likely hero worshipped and built up to this mythical figure. Then he turns out to be the bad guys. You're crushed. But you can REDEEM him. MAKE him into that guy you hero worshipped as a kid. Versus... a family member who was put into your personal care, who you were responsible for, who you were teaching, who fell to the dark side. Not only do you blame yourself, you know in your heart your sister and best friend who were the kids parents blame you too. It's YOUR FAULT. What's worse, you were trying to live up to the legacy of your trainer, Yoda, and you failed him too. There is a HUGE difference between those two states, and that's where I would be. I would view the Dad situation VERY differently than the Nephew situation. One I am not responsible for, the other I directly am.

Put it this way...I never expected to be in a position to believe I could possibly be superior to Luke Skywalker, childhood hero.
Or Leia.
Or possibly Han.

Except I strongly suspect I would have done things differently.

 

[Ithekro]

During TFA, Leia still thinks Ben Solo can be redeemed, and sends Han to go bring him back. By TLJ, she's resigned herself that Ben Solo is gone.

 

[jaime]

During TFA, Leia still thinks Ben Solo can be redeemed, and sends Han to go bring him back. By TLJ, she's resigned herself that Ben Solo is gone.

Ten years of not going to do this herself....same for Han, though there is an implication and possibility there I suppose. He was certainly in the right area of space and more likely to bump into the First Order. It’s not like he was hidden away...even if we were to buy that no-one knew Kylo Ren was Ben Solo (which would help explain the mask.) (and which was never stated, though frankly it’s the easiest fix to this.) they don’t appear to have been looking very hard for him. (Again, if Luke had pulled and Obi Wan and told them Ben had died on the attack on his temple before he disappeared, that would make more sense. But then Luke would practically be obliged to deal with Ren himself in some manner. Even if it meant pulling another Obi Wan and watching over a force sensitive kid before training them up....shame there’s no characters like that in the new trilogy...oh...hang on. There’s Rey. I am starting to get shades of Prometheus...like plan A was too close to the original, and someone nipped and tucked at the last minute without thinking too hard how that stops things working anymore.)

It just doesn’t fit with the people who went into Jabba’s Palace to rescue one of their own, or walked into the Emperors throne room to redeem Vader or die trying.
It’s not just that something really terrible would have to have happened to all these people to break them and turn them off their paths, it’s that it seems un-natural in context.

Part of this is because they did have a twenty year time jump to handle, and because they wanted to go in hot with an episode 4 approach, rather than something closer to the episode 1/2 approach that likely would have served them better. But *shrug* here we are.
Episode IX has a chance to roll the dice and bring balance to the story, and I think a lot of people are hopeful of that.

 

[Campe]

Put it this way...I never expected to be in a position to believe I could possibly be superior to Luke Skywalker, childhood hero.
Or Leia.
Or possibly Han.

Except I strongly suspect I would have done things differently.

To be fair, I don't know that you would know how you would react to a situation like this until you were in it. I hope that if my son one day decided to start down a dark path, I would be able, as his father, to sway him back towards the good. But I don't know that for a fact. It depends on where I'm at in life. It depends on where he is. It depends on what outside forces there are acting on both of us. I mean, parents see kids go down dark paths all the time. They don't always have a say in pulling them back.

 

[jaime]

To be fair, I don't know that you would know how you would react to a situation like this until you were in it. I hope that if my son one day decided to start down a dark path, I would be able, as his father, to sway him back towards the good. But I don't know that for a fact. It depends on where I'm at in life. It depends on where he is. It depends on what outside forces there are acting on both of us. I mean, parents see kids go down dark paths all the time. They don't always have a say in pulling them back.

No one knows for certain how they would.
But..I am pretty certain that doing nothing, and/or sodding off to an island somewhere to get away from it all would not be on my lists of ‘things to do about it’.
If I was near enough at the head of the most powerful government going? Yeah that’s a bunch of resources most parents don’t have.
Born with mystical powers and the foremost warrior of a couple of generations?
Again, that’s a bit of an advantage.

I think, under either of those circumstances, I would be more Luke in ROTJ. Redemption or die trying.

Han gets brownie points. He does try to bring him back....but he bumps into Ren basically by accident, and I am not sure he was exactly out looking for leads on where his missing kid was, but I can at least see it’s a possibility. Needed spelling out more though, frankly.

That’s the problem. The heroes aren’t heroes anymore. Apparently they became parents, but they don’t act much like parents either. There’s a real...lack of character development, except them being forced into slots to tell the story they landed on. I am not sure that’s the way to do it.

 

[Campe]

No one knows for certain how they would.
But..I am pretty certain that doing nothing, and/or sodding off to an island somewhere to get away from it all would not be on my lists of ‘things to do about it’.
If I was near enough at the head of the most powerful government going? Yeah that’s a bunch of resources most parents don’t have.
Born with mystical powers and the foremost warrior of a couple of generations?
Again, that’s a bit of an advantage.

I think, under either of those circumstances, I would be more Luke in ROTJ. Redemption or die trying.

Ah, but what resources does Snoke have at his disposal at this point?

Han gets brownie points. He does try to bring him back....but he bumps into Ren basically by accident, and I am not sure he was exactly out looking for leads on where his missing kid was, but I can at least see it’s a possibility. Needed spelling out more though, frankly.

Its pretty well spelled out in the movie. They run into him on Maz's planet trying to get BB-8 back to the Resistance (convenient, yeah, but its a movie). Han can't face him, hasn't seen him in years. He tells Leia. Leia asks him to go after him, bring him back. Han sees him, confronts. Tries to bring back. Gets himself killed. Don't know how much more spelling out you need.

 

[EnderAKH]

But if your father had been the same, but had also ultimately been redeemed?

As I said elsewhere, I have a different mindset towards my Dad than I do my kids. I have learned in the last 10 or so years that my Dad is not the guy in my mental map of him growing up. Not in big ways, like he had affairs or whatnot, but, he liked opera and was a lawyer so I always saw him as cultured and refined. But in the last few years, I have discovered he's really just the country kid who grew up on a farm. He would prefer to go get catfish at Babe's Chicken House rather than go to the Capital Grille for an expensive steak. But now there is a part of me who still wants him to be that guy I thought he was. In contrast, I take responsibility for my daughter's shortcomings. When she fails, or is treats another kid in an ugly way, I try to help her correct, but also understand I am partly responsible for that behavior. It is a different mental map. I don't feel responsible for my Dad's actions. I do for my kids. Luke can help his Dad, he isn't wracked with guilt and self doubt over Anakin's fall like he is Ben's.

Put it this way...I never expected to be in a position to believe I could possibly be superior to Luke Skywalker, childhood hero.
Or Leia.
Or possibly Han.

Except I strongly suspect I would have done things differently.

I don't worry about whether I am superior or they are, I want someone I can relate to, understand and at least empathize with. And I did with Luke then, and do with Luke now. Back then, I was a kid. I connected with Luke's hopefulness, his positivity and desire to do good. Now, I relate to older Luke. I've found sometimes the world doesn't work the way you want it to, no matter how hard you try. You sometimes can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved. Sometimes the world won't change no matter how hard you try, and in the case of Luke, sometimes you find that your efforts to make things better (revive the Jedi) has actually made things worse (created Hitler Jr.). I relate to that. I get that. I see where he's coming from.

 

[EnderAKH]

No one knows for certain how they would.
But..I am pretty certain that doing nothing, and/or sodding off to an island somewhere to get away from it all would not be on my lists of ‘things to do about it’.
If I was near enough at the head of the most powerful government going? Yeah that’s a bunch of resources most parents don’t have.
Born with mystical powers and the foremost warrior of a couple of generations?
Again, that’s a bit of an advantage.

I think, under either of those circumstances, I would be more Luke in ROTJ. Redemption or die trying.

Han gets brownie points. He does try to bring him back....but he bumps into Ren basically by accident, and I am not sure he was exactly out looking for leads on where his missing kid was, but I can at least see it’s a possibility. Needed spelling out more though, frankly.

That’s the problem. The heroes aren’t heroes anymore. Apparently they became parents, but they don’t act much like parents either. There’s a real...lack of character development, except them being forced into slots to tell the story they landed on. I am not sure that’s the way to do it.

Kylo Ren is, what, in his early 30s I would guess? You have a kid who starts getting strung out as a junkie starting around 18. You try. You send him to rehab. You cut him off. You try tough love and soft love. The kid is who the kid is going to be. millions of parents have figured out at some point the person is who the person is. You love them, but you cannot ignore their actions, and they refuse to be saved, so you have to move on and live your own life. I have seen parents have to make that choice with my own eyes. A friend's son was ALWAYS a problem kid. A junkie. In and out of jail. She never stopped loving him, but eventually she realized he was not going to change, so she had to move forward. It tore her apart when he eventually died from an OD, but I watched her for YEARS try, and there was nothing she could have done to change his fate. He didn't want the help. That is where we have picked up with Leia, Luke and Han. They tried. You KNOW they did. But Kylo was driven by both inner demons and the cajoling of Snoke to not just be bad, but be a mass murderer. They had to move on. It broke their marriage, as it does. It's sad, but that's the way it happens.

 

[BillJ]

I think, under either of those circumstances, I would be more Luke in ROTJ. Redemption or die trying.

How many times? How many times would you be up for the battle? How many times would you throw yourself into the redemption or die trying fire?

Luke attempted to save the galaxy, and thought he had won with the deaths of Palpatine and Vader. Only to find out the galaxy is full of Force-enabled shitheads willing to do their damndest to make things miserable for everyone.

We only know that Ben Solo was the straw that broke his back, and his faith. I'm sure there's more to the story.