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New Picard SDCC Trailer

Everybody here just LOVES to explain to you why one show or another is better or worse. I do that quite a bit, actually. LOL

No, I don't mean "I like Picard better than Discovery." I get that. I mean, "I hate Picard and I don't like anything about it because Discovery sucks!" It seems the bashing of the trailer is based on things that have nothing to do with the trailer at all. Those people either can't distinguish one series from another or can't be bothered.
 
Horror of horrors, new productions are different from older ones.

Why should newer movies and TV shows in a franchise feel just like the stuff from decades ago? If I wanted more of the same, I would just watch those shows again (which I do plenty already). I watch the new stuff because I expect it to be different.

Kor

I myself was hoping that the Christopher Eccleston Doctor Who series was going to be using the same production values that the William Hartnell Doctor Who series had. Screw Russel T. Davies for not filming in black & white and not giving everyone beehive hairdos.
 
Ugh, what is it with Nu-Trek fanboys and this disingenous line of semantics?
When huge portions of the fandom say that this doesn't "feel" like Star Trek they're talking in general about the tone and storytelling that Trek is known for. From the trailer Picard looks like typical action schlock

No.

A good example of "typical action schlock" would be the 2015 film San Andreas. You can compare the PIC trailer to a trailer for San Andreas here.

In the PIC trailer, we already see certain key themes of the series emerging. "Have you ever felt like a stranger to yourself?" "Many, many times.... These past few years, I truly tried to belong here. But it never felt like home." "Sometimes I worry that you haven forgotten who you are." "Be the captain they remember." "I don't want the game to end."

So we're already wrestling with some big thematic content here: Alienation. Guilt/survivor's guilt. Trauma. Self-loathing. Aging. Mortality.

And that's just in the trailer.

Compare that to the trailer for San Andreas. It introduces not meaningful internal conflicts for the characters to resolve. All conflicts are external -- the characters are in danger, they want to survive. There's no real deeper thematic content; there's the attempt to impose the appearance of deeper thematic content by juxtaposing action scenes with 9/11-style imagery against a melancholy pop song, but that's about as far as it goes.

Now, characters-in-peril stories can be well-done and entertaining. But ultimately, what makes them character-in-peril stories -- or "typical action schlock" -- is that there's nothing else to them, no deeper thematic content, no internal character conflict (except maybe "stop fighting and love your family").

The trailer for Star Trek: Picard makes it clear that the characters in that show will be wrestling with a lot of internal conflicts and deeper thematic issues. This is a show that's going to be about aging, about mortality, about survivor's guilt, about alienation, about finding meaning in your life. This will certain have action. But it will not be "typical action schlock."

I would expect nothing less from Kirsten Beyer, Michael Chabon, and Sir Patrick Stewart.

with a bad guy

Maybe! But who's the bad guy? Can you even tell from that trailer? I can't.

and "fate of the entire universe" stuff with tedious mystery boxes. This is not what most Star Trek fans watch Star Trek for.

You know that because you've taken a poll?

And some of the most successful Star Trek films and episodes have indeed been about fighting bad guys (TWOK, TUC, FC, the Dominion War on DS9, "The Best of Both Worlds") and about solving mysteries (TMP, "The City on the Edge of Forever," "Yesterday's Enterprise," "The Defector," "Journey to Babel," "All Good Things...," "Duet," "Second Skin," "Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast," etc., etc.).

Sure throw Star Trek on any old crap and it's "technically" Star Trek, but that doesn't mean that Star Trek as a franchise doesn't have it's own personality, tone and language that it's known for. Crap like Discovery, Into Darkness, even Nemesis don't have that visual or storytelling language that Trek is known for, they're simply other stories with a Star Trek skin.

By that logic, TNG wasn't "real Star Trek" because it was such a fundamental departure from what Star Trek had always been up till that point. Same with DS9.

As T'Pol said in response to someone threatened by something new: "Neither of our species is what it was a million years ago, nor what it will become in the future. Life is change."

No it's not. The entire trailer shows pretty much every typical red flag you would get from a tedious shallow Bad Robot production

Bad Robot is not involved in the production of either Star Trek: Discovery or Star Trek: Picard.

Also on the writers my statement is completely legitimate. Writers do not control what ends up on screen nor are they independent.

This is such a broad statement that it's hard to reply to.

It is certainly true that in general writers are not independent in Hollywood, by virtue of the fact that producing a television program or film costs money and therefore requires a studio and one or more production companies to finance the project.

To say that "writers do not control what ends up on screen" is half-true. In film, writers are usually far less important than directors (though in some cases, such as the Marvel Studios films, the producers are more important than either). In modern television, however, writers -- who are usually also producers, and are on staff -- are generally more important than directors, who are usually freelancers. This is especially true for the position of showrunner.

In any event, arguing that writers aren't actually important enough to decide what's on the show is moving the goalposts, because the post I replied to with my description of the literary accomplishments of Beyer and Chabron was specifically about disrespecting the talent and creativity of those writers.

Most of the fandom at this point admits that Discovery S2 was basically a complete trainwreck in the writing department,

I'm still working my way through S2, but the buzz I've heard about it has been overwhelmingly positive. I'm near the end and thoroughly enjoying it.

Because Picard has good writers on board, doesn't mean the show itself has a high chance of being good especially if they have to adhere to a template or tone set by suits

"Have to adhere to a template and tone set by suits" is the very definition of the entire run of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

No it isn't. You can have modern production and still stay true to the tone of previous Trek series.

Well, yes and no. You can certainly stay true to its optimism, but part of TNG's tone was determined by the conventions of late 80s/early 90s TV -- flat lighting, standardize and uncreative cinematography, studio censorship with regards to depictions of sexuality, and internal self-censorship with regards to writing two-dimensional archetypes instead of psychologically realistic characters, because psychologically-realistic characters wouldn't always get along and that would violate Gene's Holy Vision©.

look at stuff like Arrival, Interstellar, Ex Machina or Annihilation to see that more philosophical, non-action takes on Sci-fi are still very popular.

DIS and PIC strike me as being very much in the vein of Arrival, Ex Machina, and Annihilation.

haha you're entitled to your opinion, but in mine (and huge portions of the Fandoms and critics post-S2 wrapped up) Discovery is arguably one of the worst written serialised shows I've seen in my life

Then you have terrible taste and I don't want to be your friend.

I don't know why the Disco fanboys on this forum find it so incomprehensible that people dislike Discovery and the direction of Star Trek for the past decade under JJ/Kurtzman/Goldsman for actual legitimate reasons.

Because the overwhelming majority of negative reaction to the Kelvinverse films and DIS I've run into has either boiled down to, "I feel threatened by change" or thinly-veiled "Why can't WHITE GUYS be the center of the universe anymore??" screeds.

Based on the trailer, I'd like to see people's issues with Picard without referring back to how much they hate Discovery. Complaining about one just because of the other is like complaining about DS9 just because of Voyager, or vice versa.

And for that matter, we should probably remember that the biggest problems with VOY and ENT boiled down to their desperate desire to maintain the same tone and content as TNG in spite of the late 90s and early 00s being defined by television programs that were breaking new ground in terms of genre conventions and thematic depth and content. Star Trek has tried to stay in the 80s, and it was the absolute worst thing that ever happened to the franchise.
 
No, I don't mean "I like Picard better than Discovery." I get that. I mean, "I hate Picard and I don't like anything about it because Discovery sucks!" It seems the bashing of the trailer is based on things that have nothing to do with the trailer at all. Those people either can't distinguish one series from another or can't be bothered.

Wait! Who hates Picard? I haven't seen any posts like that. Oh wait.. must be Ignore user functionality working as expected ;)
 
Well, yes and no. You can certainly stay true to its optimism, but part of TNG's tone was determined by the conventions of late 80s/early 90s TV -- flat lighting, standardize and uncreative cinematography, studio censorship with regards to depictions of sexuality, and internal self-censorship with regards to writing two-dimensional archetypes instead of psychologically realistic characters, because psychologically-realistic characters wouldn't always get along and that would violate Gene's Holy Vision©.

Very much agreed. I'm a massive TNG fan, but the show exhibits hallmarks of its time that we maybe shouldn't emulate and bring forward into new Trek productions. It's not a visually dynamic show. It's not a character-driven show. I would argue that I know more about Michael Burnham's psychology (and that there's more nuance to who she is) in two seasons than maybe any of TNG's cast after seven seasons. What character development we did get on TNG was often temporary, directionless, or (in a few cases) a step backwards for the character. The idea that current Trek is action schlock without an interest in character continues to amaze me, as Trek has seldom devoted as much time to character development as Discovery. If Picard puts as much into its characters as Disco has given Michael, I'd be thrilled.

----

In other news, my next-door neighbor (who knows I like Trek) informed me today that CBS is so disappointed by the fan reaction to the Picard trailer that they've pulled the plug on the series. Apparently, they're going back to the drawing board to see if they can salvage any footage for a set of new Seven of Nine Short Treks. :guffaw:It's not often that real life provides something more outlandish than what I've seen on the internet, but there you go...
 
^I had someone tell me way back in 1986 before Encounter at Farpoint had even aired that Paramount was so disappointed with Star Trek the Next Generation that they scrapped the first seven episodes after they were completed and started fresh, so this is not only not surprising but rather familiar.
 
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No.

A good example of "typical action schlock" would be the 2015 film San Andreas. You can compare the PIC trailer to a trailer for San Andreas here.

In the PIC trailer, we already see certain key themes of the series emerging. "Have you ever felt like a stranger to yourself?" "Many, many times.... These past few years, I truly tried to belong here. But it never felt like home." "Sometimes I worry that you haven forgotten who you are." "Be the captain they remember." "I don't want the game to end."

So we're already wrestling with some big thematic content here: Alienation. Guilt/survivor's guilt. Trauma. Self-loathing. Aging. Mortality.

And that's just in the trailer.

Compare that to the trailer for San Andreas. It introduces not meaningful internal conflicts for the characters to resolve. All conflicts are external -- the characters are in danger, they want to survive. There's no real deeper thematic content; there's the attempt to impose the appearance of deeper thematic content by juxtaposing action scenes with 9/11-style imagery against a melancholy pop song, but that's about as far as it goes.

Now, characters-in-peril stories can be well-done and entertaining. But ultimately, what makes them character-in-peril stories -- or "typical action schlock" -- is that there's nothing else to them, no deeper thematic content, no internal character conflict (except maybe "stop fighting and love your family").

The trailer for Star Trek: Picard makes it clear that the characters in that show will be wrestling with a lot of internal conflicts and deeper thematic issues. This is a show that's going to be about aging, about mortality, about survivor's guilt, about alienation, about finding meaning in your life. This will certain have action. But it will not be "typical action schlock."

I would expect nothing less from Kirsten Beyer, Michael Chabon, and Sir Patrick Stewart.



Maybe! But who's the bad guy? Can you even tell from that trailer? I can't.



You know that because you've taken a poll?

And some of the most successful Star Trek films and episodes have indeed been about fighting bad guys (TWOK, TUC, FC, the Dominion War on DS9, "The Best of Both Worlds") and about solving mysteries (TMP, "The City on the Edge of Forever," "Yesterday's Enterprise," "The Defector," "Journey to Babel," "All Good Things...," "Duet," "Second Skin," "Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast," etc., etc.).



By that logic, TNG wasn't "real Star Trek" because it was such a fundamental departure from what Star Trek had always been up till that point. Same with DS9.

As T'Pol said in response to someone threatened by something new: "Neither of our species is what it was a million years ago, nor what it will become in the future. Life is change."



Bad Robot is not involved in the production of either Star Trek: Discovery or Star Trek: Picard.



This is such a broad statement that it's hard to reply to.

It is certainly true that in general writers are not independent in Hollywood, by virtue of the fact that producing a television program or film costs money and therefore requires a studio and one or more production companies to finance the project.

To say that "writers do not control what ends up on screen" is half-true. In film, writers are usually far less important than directors (though in some cases, such as the Marvel Studios films, the producers are more important than either). In modern television, however, writers -- who are usually also producers, and are on staff -- are generally more important than directors, who are usually freelancers. This is especially true for the position of showrunner.

In any event, arguing that writers aren't actually important enough to decide what's on the show is moving the goalposts, because the post I replied to with my description of the literary accomplishments of Beyer and Chabron was specifically about disrespecting the talent and creativity of those writers.



I'm still working my way through S2, but the buzz I've heard about it has been overwhelmingly positive. I'm near the end and thoroughly enjoying it.



"Have to adhere to a template and tone set by suits" is the very definition of the entire run of Star Trek: The Next Generation.



Well, yes and no. You can certainly stay true to its optimism, but part of TNG's tone was determined by the conventions of late 80s/early 90s TV -- flat lighting, standardize and uncreative cinematography, studio censorship with regards to depictions of sexuality, and internal self-censorship with regards to writing two-dimensional archetypes instead of psychologically realistic characters, because psychologically-realistic characters wouldn't always get along and that would violate Gene's Holy Vision©.



DIS and PIC strike me as being very much in the vein of Arrival, Ex Machina, and Annihilation.



Then you have terrible taste and I don't want to be your friend.



Because the overwhelming majority of negative reaction to the Kelvinverse films and DIS I've run into has either boiled down to, "I feel threatened by change" or thinly-veiled "Why can't WHITE GUYS be the center of the universe anymore??" screeds.



And for that matter, we should probably remember that the biggest problems with VOY and ENT boiled down to their desperate desire to maintain the same tone and content as TNG in spite of the late 90s and early 00s being defined by television programs that were breaking new ground in terms of genre conventions and thematic depth and content. Star Trek has tried to stay in the 80s, and it was the absolute worst thing that ever happened to the franchise.

You just saved me a lot of time. Thank you.
 
Based on the trailer, I'd like to see people's issues with Picard without referring back to how much they hate Discovery. Complaining about one just because of the other is like complaining about DS9 just because of Voyager, or vice versa.

You know what? I think this is 100% true. But I also think this is a 100% valid thing to do.

Neither DS9 nor VOY reached the quality of TNG( or TOS). And, in fact, they have many of the same problems: Both shows didn't "get" the "no inter-personal conflict"-rule of TNG, and tried the same things to cheat it - by introducing conflict via two factions (the Bajorans and the Maquis). Both failed miserably, and only found their characters after they dropped this original conflict. Also, both shows tried to the same degree to fight drops in ratings with shifting focus to phaser fights and battles, instead of clever stories or concepts. Don't get me wrong - I love both shows! But if you had problems with one of them for reasons - chances are high they also apply to the other one. Because of the same people behind the scenes.

Similar thing now. DIS had many, many, many failings, but most of all that the over-arching main plot never made a lick of sense, or amounted to anything meaningful, and always drifted into dumb action-movie territory. The hope is that PIC gets that right (with a consistent teams of showrunners from start to finish) - and really, this is, like, the one thing they need to fix on DIS to immediately turn this show into a "good" one! So yes, I'm absolutely looking forward to PIC - and I have high hopes that this time they have a clear story from start to finish - but at this time, this is really hope, and not the balls-to-the-walls excitement that that very same trailer would have ignited in me if the same writers hadn't dropped the ball already multiple times (two seasons and three movies) after such incredible promising starts each time.
 
No, I don't mean "I like Picard better than Discovery." I get that. I mean, "I hate Picard and I don't like anything about it because Discovery sucks!" It seems the bashing of the trailer is based on things that have nothing to do with the trailer at all. Those people either can't distinguish one series from another or can't be bothered.

I don't understand that either. I mean, until we see the pilot, none of us knows shit anyway. LOL
 
You know what? I think this is 100% true. But I also think this is a 100% valid thing to do.

Neither DS9 nor VOY reached the quality of TNG( or TOS). And, in fact, they have many of the same problems: Both shows didn't "get" the "no inter-personal conflict"-rule of TNG, and tried the same things to cheat it - by introducing conflict via two factions (the Bajorans and the Maquis). Both failed miserably, and only found their characters after they dropped this original conflict. Also, both shows tried to the same degree to fight drops in ratings with shifting focus to phaser fights and battles, instead of clever stories or concepts. Don't get me wrong - I love both shows! But if you had problems with one of them for reasons - chances are high they also apply to the other one. Because of the same people behind the scenes.

Similar thing now. DIS had many, many, many failings, but most of all that the over-arching main plot never made a lick of sense, or amounted to anything meaningful, and always drifted into dumb action-movie territory. The hope is that PIC gets that right (with a consistent teams of showrunners from start to finish) - and really, this is, like, the one thing they need to fix on DIS to immediately turn this show into a "good" one! So yes, I'm absolutely looking forward to PIC - and I have high hopes that this time they have a clear story from start to finish - but at this time, this is really hope, and not the balls-to-the-walls excitement that that very same trailer would have ignited in me if the same writers hadn't dropped the ball already multiple times (two seasons and three movies) after such incredible promising starts each time.

My chief complaint about ANY of the shows after TOS (including my beloved TNG) is that they spend an inordinate amount of time trying to show us just how Star Trekish they are and forget about the fact they're supposed to be spinning us good scifi yarns.
 
Here is Robert Meyer Burnett on the "Midnight's Edge" podcast, reporting how he personally spoke to Bryan Fuller after Fuller watched the trailer and "Fuller was crying", since PIC seems to use large portions of a Fuller series pitch without crediting him.

And regarding the 25% rule: They state a rumor that after negative reviews from test audiences they specifically licensed props and designs from the Berman era to use them in the reshoots for the show and bring it closer to the look of Berman-Trek and further away from JJ-Trek. BUT: Burnett states that he talked to Fuller when he still was a producer of DIS, and Fuller never mentioned such a 25% rule.

In this video, Burnett describes the series pitch from Fuller in detail, so it is possible to compare the actual series with this in 2020 and see, if Fuller's idea was actually used.

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