Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[tomalak301]

Salvage

Having Faith back instantly improved the season. Maybe Soft for team Angel was the wrong word. I'm watching this episode and I think the better word might be annoying, at least when it comes to Gunn, Fred, and especially Connor. They really do remind me of the potentials from Season 7 of Buffy (Maybe it was a directive from the higher ups to have annoying brats in this particular year?). Maybe I'm being hard on Fred a little since she was angry Gunn did what she needed to do, but I can't say the same about Gunn and Connor. I'm honestly wishing they would kinda keep quiet.

As for the rest of this episode, like I said, Faith instantly was the best character in this one, but I really like Wesley's arc this season. I wasn't sure about the whole sex with Lilah thing, but he's really taken charge and when he came back to working with the team, it was like getting great Wesley back again. I also liked that it was Angelus who killed the Beast. It is his show, but it resolves a lot of the flashback story we got in terms of the two of them. Also, now the focus can solely be on Faith vs. Angelus, which is nice symmetry to 5 by 5/Sanctuary where Angel was looking out for Faith.

I would have loved a Faith The Vampire Slayer series. Dushku has really grown into the role and it's just so much fun. Looking back with hindsight, I wasn't as high on Season 3 of Buffy (I liked it, but it wasn't my favorite season or anything) as it seems like the fandom is (Either episode review comments or on Reddit or here). I almost feel like when I rewatch season 3 of Buffy, I will have a much greater love for it, considering I know how Faith's arc goes. I still think Buffy Season 5, when all is said and done, will be my favorite season of the Buffy Verse.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Did you catch the fact that The First was behind the attempt on Faith's life in prison?

 

[tomalak301]

Did you catch the fact that The First was behind the attempt on Faith's life in prison?

No I didn't. I thought it was just an angry prisoner (A la Orange is the New Black) and the guard said why would anyone want to attack you. What was the evidence that it was The First?

 

[Turtletrekker]

No I didn't. I thought it was just an angry prisoner (A la Orange is the New Black) and the guard said why would anyone want to attack you. What was the evidence that it was The First?

The knife.

Faith also mentions the knife when she returned to Sunnydale in "Dirty Girls".

 

[tomalak301]

The knife.

Faith mentions the knife when she returned to Sunnydale in "Dirty Girls".

Now that's an easter egg. Thanks for bringing that up.

 

[tomalak301]

Release

Best thing about this episode was everything having to do with Faith, Wesley, and Angelus. Loved getting into Faith's psyche and how she's unwilling to go back to being the monster she was. That fight scene at the end with epic as hell.

The stuff with the other characters just isn't doing it for me unfortunately. Cordy as Master who is pregnant is really good at manipulation at this point and Connor is still annoying. Everything else at the hotel is filler until we get back to the meat of the episode.

I apologize if it sounds like I'm being overly critical. I'm really interested to see how this story ends, but this won't be my favorite season. There's too much melodrama for me in terms of the stuff happening at the hotel. The stuff with Faith and Wesley is top notch. Like I said in my last episode, Faith is saving this season.

 

[gblews]

I think pretty much every alien race ages at a much faster rate than humans.

Long life doesn't mean slow development. Klingons live just as long as Vulcans, yet Alexander still grows up almost as fast as an Ocampan.

Doesn't matter. Vulcans appear to develop at the same rate as humans as well, up to a point, and then their life cycle apparently slows down, while humans' continue on at a much faster rate.

It's an issue though. Take dogs for example. They reach maturity much faster than humans and continue aging faster than humans consistently throughout their lives. If the Vulcans aging process were written as consistently as dog's, Vulcans would stay babies a lot longer than humans and Vulcans who look like teenagers would likely actually be 30 or 40 year old.

On topic: the Conner/Cordy storyline was one of the cringiest I'v seen in a genre show. I don't know what the writers were thinking. I have never read or heard anyone liking it. It makes Cordy look terrible and makes Conner that much harder to stomach, and he really didn't need the boost.

 

[tomalak301]

Orpheus

Best episode of the season by far. I even liked Cordelia in this one, even though Connor is bringing her down so much to the point where since they are collaborating with each other it makes that whole storyline more cringey than impactful. However, the stuff inside Angel's mind was great, going through the various years with Angel and Angelus fighting over one another. Also, Willow being there was awesome, probably more awesome than I thought it would be when I was watching Buffy. She had Fred hit it off really well and it's a shame Fred wasn't on Buffy. If Willow and Fred ever wanted to get together, I would be totally ok with that. She's better than Kennedy at least.

Anyway, I loved this Faith story, her redemption arc, and I kind of wish things had played differently on Buffy. It was almost like Faith shows up, forced into a leader role and the writers forgot everything Faith went through in these three episodes. I don't even think that's the fault of Faith either. I think it was more Buffy's radical ideas leading to probably the worst thing I saw in that show with Dawn kicking her out of her house but we've been down that road before. Still, to get the full story now I do wish Faith would have sided with Buffy all the way.

The episode ends with Cordelia revealing her pregnancy. We'll see how this goes but I'm just sad this is happening. I get the whole manipulation thing and it's not really Cordelia, but right now I'm just ready for a good explanation about the entirety of events starting with her raising to the new plane. There's 7 episodes to go and my mind is in a state of "I don't care that Cordy is evil. You don't give a character some of the best character development in the entire Buffy verse only to be lead down this path." Now if Connor wasn't involved I might have liked it a lot better, but like I said, Connor is bringing down Cordy so much and it's bordering on tragedy at this point.

 

[SAndrews10]

I know we’ve all said it, it all does get explained pretty satisfactorily (and there’s some behind the scenes stuff that forced a few storyline changes) and you’re right it is kind of a tragedy but in the end I don’t think it undermines the development only strengthens it on rewatch

 

[tomalak301]

I know we’ve all said it, it all does get explained pretty satisfactorily (and there’s some behind the scenes stuff that forced a few storyline changes) and you’re right it is kind of a tragedy but in the end I don’t think it undermines the development only strengthens it on rewatch

I can only hope at this point.

 

[JD]

I'm thinking if the Beast is gone, then you should be getting close to the explanation.

 

[tomalak301]

I'm thinking if the Beast is gone, then you should be getting close to the explanation.

I’m watching episode 16 right now. Gunn and Gwen team up and Conner is still as mopey as ever.

 

[tomalak301]

Player

That was a nice diverting episode. Gunn was finally useful and I liked his story with Gwen. Looks like Gwen is back to normal, even though now I wonder is she will be back in the next season.

As for the Cordy stuff, it was basically the ending where she was about the stab Lorne. I thought she was going to do it too but now everyone knows who or what she is. That means the next episode I am thinking an explanation is on the way. To that I say finally. I hope it’s a worthy explaination.

 

[tomalak301]

Inside Out

I'm not sure about this episode. Based on watching it and reading the recap, it sure seems like this series was based on fate, and quite frankly I'm a little tired of Fate being used as a crunch. So let's see if I have this right. The evil inhabiting Cordelia was manipulating the series of events in this series so they can use her as a vessel for their plan? So it wasn't really the powers that be that gave her the visions, it was this evil demon that is now played by Gina Torres?

It was a pretty good explanation for the season, but I don't like the idea that fate dictates this entire series. I mean that's a lot of events you have to manipulate to carry out this plan, and everything has to fall right. I know this series is based on fantasy and demons and vampires, but this kinda strains credulity for me.

I will also say this "well-executed" plan kinda reminds me of the end of Season 2 of Discovery. Here it's everything was determined by this evil being. In Discovery, everything is classified. Again, it strains credulity.

It was great to see Darla again, trying to talk sense into Connor. I think it's official. Connor is the worst person ever created in the Buffy Universe. He's always consumed with hate and complaining, I don't see any way he can ever be redeemed.

Shiny Happy People

So we have Jasmine, who has the power to hypnotize people just by her presence. She's a powerful big bad, but I'm not entirely sure Gina Torres was rightly cast for the role. I still see her as Zoe for some reason. This is going to be a nice big Fred end of the season though I think. Still, I can't help but still be bothered the circumstances that have lead to this storyline. It's not bad, but I'm not wowed by it.

 

[theenglish]

I know we’ve all said it, it all does get explained pretty satisfactorily (and there’s some behind the scenes stuff that forced a few storyline changes) and you’re right it is kind of a tragedy but in the end I don’t think it undermines the development only strengthens it on rewatch

I've been trying to stay silent on spoilers, but you are right. Real life events had a huge impact on Cordelia's ultimate story line. I don't know if the threads are still available here but I remember a lot of reactions similar to Tomalak's at the time. When you're finished this season, I'm sure that you could find summaries of the original plan online. That said, the story works pretty well as is--

 

[tomalak301]

I've been trying to stay silent on spoilers, but you are right. Real life events had a huge impact on Cordelia's ultimate story line. I don't know if the threads are still available here but I remember a lot of reactions similar to Tomalak's at the time. When you're finished this season, I'm sure that you could find summaries of the original plan online. That said, the story works pretty well as is--

The story works, but how we get here is an issue. Like I said, I'm conflicted on the whole thing.

The Magic Bullet

Someone put Connor out of his misery. I'm done with that brat kid. It's amazing how blindly nieve a kid can actually get.

Other than that, this was a pretty good episode. The scenes praising Jasmine were funny and Fred was actually really badass here. Loved the scene where Angel comforts her after she admits she was scared. Also glad, despite Connor, that our characters are no longer under Jasmine's spell.

Also, when I'm done I'm looking forward to some of the behind the scenes stuff. I know Carpenter was pregnant during this season but other than that, I don't have much. Evidently storylines needed to be changed, I wonder if that had anything to do with the about face in Skip's character. He really did a 180 from Tomorrow to Inside Out.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Honestly, now that we can speak a bit more freely: the Cordy/Jasmine storyline is functional enough as a story, but I still think it ruined Cordelia's character, although the show overall recovered. Connor actually rebounds from all of this better than Cordelia, imo.

 

[tomalak301]

Honestly, now that we can speak a bit more freely: the Cordy/Jasmine storyline is functional enough as a story, but I still think it ruined Cordelia's character, although the show overall recovered. Connor actually rebounds from all of this better than Cordelia, imo.

Is that something to look forward to in season 5 because I'm not sure how Connor can actually rebound from this.

Also, there are 3 episodes left in the season, so between now and the end, Angel has to go to Sunnydale to give Buffy the amulet. That's something I'm looking out for in these final 3. I doubt I get anything from it though. I do know James Marsters comes in season 5 though so maybe that might help explain things.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Is that something to look forward to in season 5 because I'm not sure how Connor can actually rebound from this.

Also, there are 3 episodes left in the season, so between now and the end, Angel has to go to Sunnydale to give Buffy the amulet. That's something I'm looking out for in these final 3. I doubt I get anything from it though. I do know James Marsters comes in season 5 though so maybe that might help explain things.

Yes, season 5 is where Connor actually becomes a good character.

As for the amulet, it's not really a focus of anything on Angel season 4. It kind of ties into the way this story ends, but it's really a bit of a blink and you'll miss it moment, iirc. It does get some more explanation next season, as you surmised in connection to Spike's story.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I might just throw in the Jasmine arc and watch again from there. This was my introduction to the Buffyverse, after reading something that intrigued me, I decided to throw it on one night and was hooked enough to start my whole ass-backwards journey through the Buffyverse.