Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[JirinPanthosa]

Jasmine I don’t think was supposed to be evil per se. She was was a power that be that was sick of siting on the sidelines watching humanity devour itself. So she became involved. Some have said with Buffy fighting the first evil that year Angel was fighting the first good.

Actually back in the day someone wrote a good fan fic conversation that Jasmine and the first had as their plans were coming to fruition at the same time. I believe that author insinuated that Jasmine knew what the first had planning/up to since Season 3 of Buffy and this was her counter plan to save us. Hence the powers making it snow in Sunnydale at just the right time.

Jasmine’s argument is interesting “I eat 40 people a day but prevent thousands of killings in war”.

It’s hard for me to call it a “Good” so much as peace by absolute control, like the extreme law end of the law/chaos spectrum you see with the Vorlons, the Mass Effect control ending, etc.

I liked the mini-crossover when the First appeared to Connor as Darla.

 

[tomalak301]

Jasmine’s argument is interesting “I eat 40 people a day but prevent thousands of killings in war”.

It’s hard for me to call it a “Good” so much as peace by absolute control, like the extreme law end of the law/chaos spectrum you see with the Vorlons, the Mass Effect control ending, etc.

I liked the mini-crossover when the First appeared to Connor as Darla.

Wait that wasn’t the first. I thought it was just another powers that be?

That scene was so sad. It was the scene that really cemented Connor to the Dark Side.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Wait that wasn’t the first. I thought it was just another powers that be?

That scene was so sad. It was the scene that really cemented Connor to the Dark Side.

What makes you think it wasn’t the First?

This came up in my Buffy thread from a few years ago. The “Competing apocalypse” theory. The First wanted to stop Jasmine’s apocalypse because it ruined her apocalypse.

 

[Turtletrekker]

This came up in my Buffy thread from a few years ago. The “Competing apocalypse” theory. The First wanted to stop Jasmine’s apocalypse because it ruined her apocalypse.

Could you provide a link to that thread?

 

[tomalak301]

What makes you think it wasn’t the First?

This came up in my Buffy thread from a few years ago. The “Competing apocalypse” theory. The First wanted to stop Jasmine’s apocalypse because it ruined her apocalypse.

Because there was nothing hinted that it was the first while this storyline was about the powers that be and a former power that was manipulating events.

And Darla was begging Connor to stop doing what he was doing, showing concern. The First never showed any care other than almost laughter at their "hosts".

 

[tomalak301]

Hell Bound

Yeah that episode was pretty creepy but I kinda expected worse. The guy with the chopped fingers was probably the creepiest, even though the woman with the glass in her eye was weird too. I did appreciate them explaining why Spike can't fall through the floor or even leaning on the table. Most shows (TNG's The Next Phase for example) don't do that when dealing with Non-corporeal ghosts, so it's good to see the attention to detail there. I liked Pavayne, and learning about the W & H's origins.

I am hoping this doesn't become the Spike season though. I still can't help but feel like since Buffy ended they needed a way to get Spike back because he was the most popular character in Buffy. I hope season 5 doesn't have a 7 of 9 situation happening (Even though I really liked Seven as a character).

 

[SAndrews10]

It’s a heavy dose of introduction at first and then it settles in

 

[tomalak301]

Life of the Party

This time is a Lorne episode (Haven't really had one of those for a while) and it was kinda funny, kinda stupid. Could have done without Angel and Eve sexing it up, but Gunn pissing on everything and Spike were hysterical. I even loved the end where Gunn pissed on Angel's chair and, with Lorne's influence worn off Spike said that was fantastic. You know if they couldn't get Christopher Eccleston for Doctor Who, I think James Marsters would have made a great doctor. Of course watching Buffy I actually learned he was an American, but he carries the British accent really well. Maybe he could have been Captain Jack. (Yes I know he was in Torchwood). Seeing Hulk-Lorne, however, was a little corny.

 

[SAndrews10]

So the story goes when the team was getting to plotting the back 9 of the season Joss went to the network brass and said listen here’s what I’ve got going on and in order to know how many plot threads I'm going to have to pull I need to know if we’re coming back next year (for Season 6). They were noncommittal with the usual wait until May responses, Joss kept pressing them and believing they were going to have strong pilots said no you’re not wrap it up.

Later on that summer in an interview about something else one of the brass was asked about the Angel cancellation and they said that if Joss had just waited as they said, the pilots didn’t come back as strong as they believed they would have ended up renewing for season 6. But by then the sets had been struck people had moved on and it was all said and done.

 

[tomalak301]

The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco

I think the only thing good in this episode was bringing the Shanshu prophecy (Something I kind of forgot about considering everything that was happening) back to the forefront. I didn't care about Numero 5 (Even though seeing the guy in the premiere I had a pretty sneaking suspicion that he would get an episode) or his band of wrestlers. This was actually a kinda boring episode.

 

[JD]

I just remembered that one of my absolute favorite Buffyverse episodes, Smile Time, is coming up later in season. It's hilarious.

 

[tomalak301]

Lineage

This was probably my favorite episode of the season so far. I think Denisof might be the best actor on the show and he absolutely shined here. We've been told that he had a terrible relationship with his father, but this episode took it up a notch. Yeah it ended up not being his father, but to shoot someone who looks like his father to protect Fred and do it with such gusto was shocking. I was also hoping that he would call his real father and he did. While the last episode was really boring, this episode was probably the most emotionally impactful one I've seen since the final Faith episode.

 

[tomalak301]

Destiny

I didn't realize how much Angel and Spike hated each other. I'm not sure if we ever saw them on screen (We saw Angelus and Spike but that's different) but I liked the flashbacks to show how far back that rivalry went. If there is one thing that has annoyed me about reading various comments from fans, it's this rivalry between Angel and Spike over Buffy. I still don't think either relationship was good for her, even though Spike at the end showed that he was actually capable of some love. Anyway, in terms of this episode, that fight sequence was epic, even though I thought when William was sired that was when he took the Spike name. Why was he still called William by Angelus in 1880.

As for the end and the return of Lindsey, that's interesting. I'm glad they are finally going somewhere with this Eve character. It seemed like she was just "there", but now she and Lindsey are pulling some of the strings. Also, Spike is corporeal again in this episode. I wonder how long that is going to last.

Other than Lineage, these episodes have felt kind of meandering. They've been ok, but they've been just really different from the rest of the series. It looks like some more arcs have started, which is a plus.

 

[theenglish]

At this point, nobody thought this was the last season so there really wasn't any sense of urgency regarding the story arcs. After season 4's story the first half of this season was really about starting fresh. I haven't posted in a while so a couple of thoughts about season 4:

1. It wasn't really about fate, it was about the manipulation of events by Jasmine. IIRC Cordy was supposed to have been the big bad for the season but real life issues got in the way.

2. Keep in mind that we never saw the real Cordelia in Season 4. The real Cordelia ascended in Season 3 and we only saw her body in Season 4.

 

[tomalak301]

At this point, nobody thought this was the last season so there really wasn't any sense of urgency regarding the story arcs. After season 4's story the first half of this season was really about starting fresh. I haven't posted in a while so a couple of thoughts about season 4:

1. It wasn't really about fate, it was about the manipulation of events by Jasmine. IIRC Cordy was supposed to have been the big bad for the season but real life issues got in the way.

2. Keep in mind that we never saw the real Cordelia in Season 4. The real Cordelia ascended in Season 3 and we only saw her body in Season 4.

I'm aware of that now. I was worried after the big episode, but the way the season ended it did calm myself down on the whole fate vs. free will thing.

Jumping back to season 5, Angel is a Hockey fan and Fred is a Dixie Chicks fan. I wonder how that went over, with Fred saying jamming to the Dixie Chicks the same year they made those comments and kinda got blackballed from the country music scene. I wish I had watched this series sooner.

Harm's Way

Well, it's finally happened. There's an episode in the Buffy Verse where I actually felt bad for Harmony. To whoever said they liked Harmony in season 5, I agree with you. They have really made her a sympathetic character this season, and I really liked this episode a lot. I probably shouldn't have, but this is how you do a minor character focus and have it mean something. She deserves a hug.

 

[theenglish]

For Season 4, on repeat viewings it makes the "eehhww" moment a horrific one in that Connor was raped and then manipulated throughout the season. It really makes you feel sorry for him and the cards he was dealt his entire life.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I know someone posted a link to the animated Buffy pilot on YouTube a while back, but here is an article that goes a little more in-depth what they had planned. The thing that interested me the most about this project was that it was going to be set during the first three seasons, yet they were going to include Dawn. So, these would be the "altered memory" takes on the stories.

Amongst the stories we might have seen, Buffy's driver's ed teacher being revealed to be a demon, a demon made out of cafeteria food and a story of Buffy being shrunk (Honey, I Shrunk The Slayer?).

Joss Whedon stated that his goal was to create an animated show that could stand next to Batman the animated series.

https://cartoonresearch.com/index.php/the-animated-buffy-the-vampire-slayer/

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Because there was nothing hinted that it was the first while this storyline was about the powers that be and a former power that was manipulating events.

And Darla was begging Connor to stop doing what he was doing, showing concern. The First never showed any care other than almost laughter at their "hosts".

The First showed concern for Willow when appearing as the girl with the heart defect. Showed concern for Dawn when appearing as Joyce to manipulate her against Buffy. In order to manipulate them to its own ends. The First will take any persona, caring or not, if it achieves its own ends. Just as it was doing with Connor. The First did not want the world taken over by somebody who could prevent everyone from killing each other.

 

[JD]

Harm's Way

Well, it's finally happened. There's an episode in the Buffy Verse where I actually felt bad for Harmony. To whoever said they liked Harmony in season 5, I agree with you.

That was me.
One thing I liked about Season 5, was that they actually did give us a some lighter episodes, which was nice after after Season 4 ended up getting pretty dark by the end.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Season 5 is really my favorite season of Angel. It's more episodic again, though not as much as season 1, and obviously it suffers from lack of Cordelia. But the Wolfram and Hart switch worked incredibly well, I loved the themes of power and corruption, working within the system or being ruined by the system. Harmony, Spike and the return of Lindsey, were all highlights for me.

Also: A Hole in the World. I won't spoil anything, but that's one of the high points of the entire buffyverse for me.

And the finale was a real shell-shocker when I first saw it, but I quickly came to see it as almost the perfect way to end the series.