I'm 31 years, and I've watched ROTJ repeatedly and never once felt like the Ewoks were insulting my intelligence.
Ewoks are not that bad, and Boba Fett is not an interesting character
- Thread starter JirinPanthosa
- Start date
My main problem with the Ewoks is that they don't suit the tone and stakes of the space battle and Luke vs. Vader.
Luke and Vader's confrontation is the franchise's most intense duel. Each character is going through serious internal conflicts, and we're seeing things like Luke embracing his anger and the Emperor remorselessly torturing him.
The space battle is a huge roll of the dice for the Rebellion. We've seen them grow from a few fighters to a respectable fleet, now they're putting all that on the line and taking heavy loses in a desperate effort to cripple the Empire.
In contrast, the Ewok battle feels too silly and lighthearted. We see like one Ewok die, and too much of the battle revolves around whimsical traps. It simply doesn't suit what's going on in the rest of the movie. It doesn't help that they're teddy bears fighting the Empire's finest, but that's not the main problem.
Luke and Vader's confrontation is the franchise's most intense duel. Each character is going through serious internal conflicts, and we're seeing things like Luke embracing his anger and the Emperor remorselessly torturing him.
The space battle is a huge roll of the dice for the Rebellion. We've seen them grow from a few fighters to a respectable fleet, now they're putting all that on the line and taking heavy loses in a desperate effort to cripple the Empire.
In contrast, the Ewok battle feels too silly and lighthearted. We see like one Ewok die, and too much of the battle revolves around whimsical traps. It simply doesn't suit what's going on in the rest of the movie. It doesn't help that they're teddy bears fighting the Empire's finest, but that's not the main problem.
For Everyone in this thread check out the ebook version of the making of The Empire Strikes Back by J.W. Rinzler, which incidentally the ebook is now $6.99 on Amazon. In the book, it details the production of the movie, but more importantly the absolute evolution of Boba Fett from sketches and supertrooper version, to parade and toy device, to a plot device in the film. In the book you'll see Harrison Ford and Kersh formulate an idea to make Fett a badass as a counter to Han Solo fugitive gunslinger smuggler ways. Plus to give weight to Solo's capture, and actually make the capture and carbon freeze scene more realistic. To explain why Han and Chewie didnt put up a struggle too.
To me Fett is as dangerous as Vader and just as mysterious. It just works. Lucas likes to have two pairing of villains in all the movies. Tarkin/Vader, Vader/Fett, The Emperor/Vader.
If the audience didnt buy Fett as a character, then Han Solo goes from gunslinger to dopey in two seconds especially after his capture.
My only wish was more of all the bounty hunters created by Lucas and not even used to effect in Empire. Such a great deadly bunch barely seen.
As for the Ewoks, yeah its ok. But read the making of Empire and Jedi books. Lucas had better ideas. The Yuzzum, the Wookies, but how to make it work? You couldnt. Personally the initial script and story for Revenge was great. With Vader and The Emperor being equally deadly in their own right. But by Kasdans own admission Lucas's script and story were getting watered down over time. Due to what was capable in 1982. I.E. more Death Star, and not having Had Abbadon instead. Kasdan I felt made another mistake by not having Yoda and Obi-wan in the fight with Luke against Vader and the Emperor.
Read Lucas's rough draft Revenge script and the making of Return of the Jedi by Rinzler. Its an eye opener.
-Koric
To me Fett is as dangerous as Vader and just as mysterious. It just works. Lucas likes to have two pairing of villains in all the movies. Tarkin/Vader, Vader/Fett, The Emperor/Vader.
If the audience didnt buy Fett as a character, then Han Solo goes from gunslinger to dopey in two seconds especially after his capture.
My only wish was more of all the bounty hunters created by Lucas and not even used to effect in Empire. Such a great deadly bunch barely seen.
As for the Ewoks, yeah its ok. But read the making of Empire and Jedi books. Lucas had better ideas. The Yuzzum, the Wookies, but how to make it work? You couldnt. Personally the initial script and story for Revenge was great. With Vader and The Emperor being equally deadly in their own right. But by Kasdans own admission Lucas's script and story were getting watered down over time. Due to what was capable in 1982. I.E. more Death Star, and not having Had Abbadon instead. Kasdan I felt made another mistake by not having Yoda and Obi-wan in the fight with Luke against Vader and the Emperor.
Read Lucas's rough draft Revenge script and the making of Return of the Jedi by Rinzler. Its an eye opener.
-Koric
True, about Boba Fett and the Ewoks. The Jedi movie has about 15 interesting minutes to it. Yoda and Luke. Obi-Wan clings to "his own point-of-view (he's stupid, or he lies)." Vader says all that needs to be said in the shuttle. They re-hash it in front of the stupidest, most arrogant version of Palpatine available. Oh, big news! Luke almost died after cutting his father's hand off in anger. And Vader saves him!...by commiting murder. Seriously, does this guy know how to do anything else? The end.
P.S.--And...we brought back Han for what reason? Especially, considering VII.
P.S.--And...we brought back Han for what reason? Especially, considering VII.
I can see that, but I think that, when looked out through the eyes of the Ewoks, it actually follows the themes of ANH quite well.
I suppose, but I don’t really see the need to play out that theme with these new silly characters.
Its effectiveness is questionable, I agree. But, the more I learn what Lucas wanted to do the easier it is to watch that theme play out.
What do you mean by what Lucas wanted?
The idea of a Viet-Cong-esque, less technologically advanced society, taking down a technologically advanced Empire.
But isn’t that a little redundant at this point? The whole OT revolved around a small, ill-equipped band taking on a mighty military force.
If anything, seeing the Ewoks so easily overcome a legion of the empire’s best using such quaint weapons kinda trivialises the struggles and sacrifices of the Rebellion, especially given the relatively lighthearted tone. I mean, the Vietcong didn’t have a great time themselves during the war. The Ewoks basically act like it’s a bit of a laugh, and even Han and Leia really don’t seem as concerned as they should be given what’s happening above Endor.
If anything, seeing the Ewoks so easily overcome a legion of the empire’s best using such quaint weapons kinda trivialises the struggles and sacrifices of the Rebellion, especially given the relatively lighthearted tone. I mean, the Vietcong didn’t have a great time themselves during the war. The Ewoks basically act like it’s a bit of a laugh, and even Han and Leia really don’t seem as concerned as they should be given what’s happening above Endor.
No.
There was no racist component to the Empire's disdain of the Rebellion. The Ewoks on the other hand were considered animals and as such intrinsically inferior.
Is this one of those ‘explained in the novelisation’ things? The Empire didn’t seem to have any attitude towards the Ewoks. I’m not sure how you get a racist component, and the Vietnam war itself wasn’t about racism, so I don’t think that works.
In any case, that doesn’t really excuse the lightheartedness of the Ewok battle, which is my main issue.
No, it doesn't. Any more than Aaragorn's battle at the Black Gate is diminished by the Hobbits own battle.
It's an extension of a theme.
You were talking critical analysis, I was talking critical analysis. You asked whether the whole analogy was redundant. It wasn't, because the Americans definitely had racist attitudes towards the Vietnamese.
It's an obvious subtext in the film. Even Luke and Han underestimated the Ewoks, because they thought they were just animals.
Aragorn was arguably the trilogy’s second most important character. We’ve known him almost as long as the hobbits, so that’s completely different. I get that it’s an extension of the theme. What I’m saying is that it’s a poor and unnecessary one.
I said redundant because we’ve already seen poorly equipped beating out vast military empire, and I don’t think the Ewoks bring anything new to that. I think they diminish it.
I also don’t understand where you’re really getting this racist idea. I guess the empire’s actions can be construed that way, but they barely even seemed aware of the Ewoks. There’s no real suggestion they considered them inferior, although that seems like a fair assessment since they don’t even seem to have learned metalwork (from what I remember).
But why does that even matter? What I’ve objected to is the lightheartedness of the Ewok fight. You’re saying their fight matters because ‘there was no racist component to the Empire’s disdain of the Rebellion’. Seems like a reach.
But then, this is a Star Wars thread...
And yet Yoda states Luke is a Jedi prior to that, despite TESB where Yoda heckles Luke for misjudging Yoda for his size and lack thereof. Was Yoda in ROTJ still heckling Luke? He wasn't snickering as he died and faded away. ObiWan returned as a force ghost for an obligatory chat. Why didn't Yoda make one last ghostly visit to nudge Luke with that oversight? (The writer being bored and just wanting to close the chapter, which offered nothing new apart from finding another actor to play the Emperor in the way they didn't think of doing so in TESB* and, of course, the obligatory saving of Han - with a plan that doesn't make any sense...)
* hence the special edition dealing with that, complete with excessive exposition that just about ruins the big shock crowd-pleasing reveal at the movie's climax to anyone who's not seen it before but are watching it in intended/sane order (IV,V,VI,I,II,III,VII,VIII,IX), and clearly does ruin it if said anyone sat through the episodes in Episodic order (I,II,III, IV, V,VI,VII,VIII,IX), assuming they slogged through I-IV and didn't give up on it out of abject boredom, would scream "spoiler alert" once Darth has his holographic chat with the Emperor in creating such an anticlimax thanks to the special edition's excessive alteration (bringing in McDiarmid was inspired, expanding his dialogue from a reasoned length to unnecessary expositional and plot twist-squelching litany was another.)
And I will respectfully disagree. Largely because Aragorn (and in the book the Prince of Dol Amroth) represent a more ordered military, while the Hobbits represent a far more simply, and technologically less developed, component. It is a common mythological theme that Lucas uses to expand upon the primary theme of the work.
It might be poor, as the Ewoks due certainly add a bit of levity in an odd way, but I don't think they are unnecessary. I think they represent a natural extension of the world building and the work. The idea that the Empire doesn't just represent a threat to the technologically similar, but the inferior as well.
Regardless, it is a highly common theme in mythological works and science fiction stories. And it is a theme that Lucas wanted from the very beginning. This is just an extension of that theme.
But they don't seem to pose any threat to the Ewoks. Imperial troops seem entirely indifferent to them until the Ewoks actually attack. I think if what you say is true the writers would actually have put it in the film. This would not have been hard. You say they represent a natural extension of the world-building, but that could apply to the introduction of just about any new species. I don't think that's a reason to have them in the movie.
Ultimately, I just think the narrative would be stronger without them because we wouldn't keep cutting from action with clear stakes and a serious tone to silliness with the Ewoks.
Again, the point about Aragorn is that he's an established character from the get-go, so there's no clear comparison there between him and the Ewoks.
And that is a completely fair criticism. I agree that the execution is debatable.
Personally, I think it fits just fine within the film as a concept.
This is missing the point of my Aragorn comparison, but that's OK. I don't want to derail further, and I didn't communicate it clearly.
Also, I find this criticism of Boba Fett a little odd. Yes, the praise he gets doesn't correspond to the amount of time he spends in the movie or the actions he takes, but that's kinda the point.
Boba Fett was a pretty unimportant character, but the writing and acting was somehow good enough to make him interesting. That cold, dispassionate voice. The way he tended to move with such slow deliberation. The way he interacted with Vader like an equal in stark contrast to everyone else. He definitely didn't 'only look cool', although the helmet design did a great job reflecting the character.
The fan response to Boba Fett was totally organic. A minor character so well written and acted that a huge portion of the audience find him intriguing instead of forgetable? I'd say that character deserves his status and then some.
Unfortunately, the "special editions" do a wonderful job of watering down his character. Replacing that fantastic original voice with a kiwi accent and making him flirt with the dancers in Jabba's palace are just awful decisions.
Boba Fett was a pretty unimportant character, but the writing and acting was somehow good enough to make him interesting. That cold, dispassionate voice. The way he tended to move with such slow deliberation. The way he interacted with Vader like an equal in stark contrast to everyone else. He definitely didn't 'only look cool', although the helmet design did a great job reflecting the character.
The fan response to Boba Fett was totally organic. A minor character so well written and acted that a huge portion of the audience find him intriguing instead of forgetable? I'd say that character deserves his status and then some.
Unfortunately, the "special editions" do a wonderful job of watering down his character. Replacing that fantastic original voice with a kiwi accent and making him flirt with the dancers in Jabba's palace are just awful decisions.
