We made the Cestus III run in 500 Parsecs

[Timo]

The problem with "The Cage" isn't just absolute but also relative, which is sorta worse because it means the episode contradicts itself.

If Pike came across a great distance, then necessarily so did the Columbia. And if the distance truly is galactic, and nevertheless the Columbia can cross it without being generational (ship's records listing Vina rather rule that out) or using cryosleep or anything, then every distance in this Star Trek universe is trivial and

a) Tyler's boast about his ship being faster wouldn't really make any difference to the supposed Haskins and his folks, relatively speaking
b) Starfleet failing to check out on missing ships ASAP makes no sense if it only ever involves two days of work, tops
c) or alternately, if b doesn't happen because Earth ships are few and far in between, two of them ending up in the same place becomes flat out impossible when the playground involved is galaxy-wide.

Pike telling his captors a whopper would appear fitting, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Steven P Bastien]

The ship moves like a toy. The shot of it pivoting around once the tractor beam releases it is laughable.

I didn't laugh at it, but I don't mean that they are great or good. I just feel that it is better than the original in this particular episode. I looked at what I wrote and see I did not actually convey my meaning well. For me, understanding the relationship of the 2 ships and the machine and how they move relative to each other is important in this episode, and I get a better sense of all that with the new version. I could draw an analogy to the props in a stage production of Hamlet or other play. The backdrops might be very unrealistic but they just convey critical information to help understand the story.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

I think that getting the distance numbers correct - the first time - is far more important than getting good special effects.

Actually, I agree. When I look back at what I wrote, I see my message was not clear and I made it sound like the special effects is what I was commenting about. I was really trying to say that the relative location and motion is important and effects that make that clearer are more important, at least for me.

So, my opinion is that, ideally, I would of course want the numbers correct. But, if I had to choose, the relative positions and motions are more important for me to understand what is happening. I can mentally correct the incorrect large distances. For example, the ship is thrown far away and it's going to take a while to get back.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Just gonna leave this monkey wrench in Talos IV speculations, from "The Menagerie". Guessing whoever came up with this thought they were hopping galaxies?

 

[Timo]

One and the same galaxy, I presume. It has a south, surely it also has a spring?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[uniderth]

Ha! That's more or less the explanation I came up with myself. I even did a whole thread on it a few years back, but sadly did not convince many

That could have been the thread I read that convinced me.

Just gonna leave this monkey wrench in Talos IV speculations, from "The Menagerie". Guessing whoever came up with this thought they were hopping galaxies?

My thoughts are that the area of the galaxy that is considered vernal is probably the region near Rigel that also contains some of the stars in Orion. This area has a lot of young stars and nebulae, so perhaps it is considered "springlike" becasue of this.

A lot of this was discussed in this thread here:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/why-was-pike-headed-for-vega.298579/

 

[Vger23]

Let's not touch it.



At all.

 

[Timo]

Yes, let's concentrate on the phagrin level-mass computer now that we can.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Yes, let's concentrate on the phagrin level-mass computer now that we can.

Sci-fi of the period often envisioned a single, giant computer to serve as the central IT resource. Landru, Vaal, and, to a lesser extant, Memory Alpha are in this vein. I haven't read the relevant Isaac Asimov novels, but I think his Foundation series went this route as well.

In 1967, nobody thought the world's information would be distributed piecemeal across 100 million computer servers, and that those servers would talk to billions of end-user computers. That's stranger than fiction, in a way.

 

[Commishsleer]

Just gonna leave this monkey wrench in Talos IV speculations, from "The Menagerie". Guessing whoever came up with this thought they were hopping galaxies?

How come only Pike and Spock recommended not going to Talos?
Was Number 1 and Boyce and the rest of the crew in favour of visits?

 

[Timo]

Pike is the CO and Spock is the resident telepath. Plus, you know, this recommendation was probably formulated after the events of "If Memory Serves" rather than those of "The Cage" anyway, thus not involving Boyce or #1 in any fashion.

Sci-fi of the period often envisioned a single, giant computer to serve as the central IT resource.

Well, even with that assumption, the whole paragraph is utter nonsense. Why is it listed under "Known Facts"? At best, we could read it as being analogous to "This Document Typed With IBM Swiftkey Plus", and who'd give a flying fuck about that?

(OTOH, utter nonsense is what we might well expect to find in a document like this. The phrase would be comparable to Afghanistan Banana Stand, having no more to do with cross-referencing or mass-levels than the other phrase has with mountainous regions or fruit retail. A random string such as 3XY further points at this being codetalk, a pointer to deep dark secrets for the suitably anointed.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yes, let's concentrate on the phagrin level-mass computer now that we can.

Timo Saloniemi

Perhaps that's the technical name for what is colloquially known as "Control"

 

[uniderth]

Pike is the CO and Spock is the resident telepath. Plus, you know, this recommendation was probably formulated after the events of "If Memory Serves" rather than those of "The Cage" anyway, thus not involving Boyce or #1 in any fashion.

Timo Saloniemi

Perhaps that's the technical name for what is colloquially known as "Control"

No. Bad.
*throws newspaper*

 

[johnnybear]

I wouldn't have thought that Spock or Pike for that matter would have had the authority to ban other earth vessels from visiting Talos IV? I think it was more likely a decision made by the heads of Starfleet command after they reviewed the information on the incident there!
JB

 

[Timo]

Well, the text of that document has this Admiral Comsol only meekly "recommending" that nobody visit Talos, and then offhand mentioning Pike and Spock for also having recommended the same thing. (Okay, not the exact same - Pike says "No Man" and Comsol, clearly a more forward-thinking man representing the next generation, says "No One"...)

Whether Starfleet ever acted on this specific recommendation, or quarantined Talos IV based on other, better information available, we don't know. It's a pretty poorly formulated bit of redundant pseudo-jargon anyway. "Be it hereby noted that said following instructions be incorporated" indeed!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MAGolding]

Watching "Arena" last night it occurred to me that while efforts have been made to update the special effects in TOS , some of the dialogue could be subtlety altered to bring it more accurate and consistent with both Trek as a whole and with the science involved.

When Sulu reports that the Enterprise is 500 parsecs away from where it was I thought that it would take a very long time to travel that distance even in the TNG era. We see a similar example in " That which Survives " with the 997 plus light years the Enterprise was tossed. I am sure we can all think of other examples of this.

To me the heart of Trek is the story of a more enlightened future and the exploration of both the unknown and human nature so a bit of sound effects sleight of hand to fix some of the more glaring distance and speed errors would not bother me but I would enjoy hearing others opinions on this.

My post number 55 on page 3 of the thread: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/time-distance-and-speed-problems-in-star-trek.301617/page-3 mentions the voyages of the Enterprise in "Arena" as examples of times that it appears to be traveling at very great multiples of the speed of light, speeds inconsistent with the TOS and THG era warp scales and with travel to the Gamma and Delta quadrants taking many decades in the TNG era.

 

[johnnybear]

The problems of the Gamma and Delta regions of the galaxy come from the TNG, DS9 and VOY series! So if the USS Voyager had been lost in another galaxy instead of on the other side of this one would you think that may have been better?
JB

 

[Qonundrum]

View attachment 9832

Darth Vader always had the best response:

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[Warped9]

Given the references sprinkled throughout the series it’s evident the Enterprise can travel a lot faster than what the old WF cubed formula indicates. And given the formula was never referenced onscreen it carries no real weight.

That old formula simply doesn’t allow for speeds fast enough for the ship to traverse the distances referenced onscreen within the time frames referenced. The formula might work if the ship never went further than a couple of hundred light years at most from Earth. One might also make a case for it to be a formula used by older ships (before Jose Tyler’s reference to) the “time barrier” being broken by the newer faster ships that now use an entirely new formula. And this was something completely undermined by TNG’s insistence on trying to make the warp scale more “believable.”

Also most of the audience of the period wouldn’t have agonized over the terminology used as long as it sounded right to them. Indeed sci-fi of the past has used the terms “galaxy” and “solar system” interchangeably and few were the wiser.

 

[johnnybear]

Lost in Space made the biggest blunders by saying that they could pass through an entire galaxy overnight!!!
JB