We made the Cestus III run in 500 Parsecs

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by DanGussin, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. DanGussin

    DanGussin Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Watching "Arena" last night it occurred to me that while efforts have been made to update the special effects in TOS , some of the dialogue could be subtlety altered to bring it more accurate and consistent with both Trek as a whole and with the science involved.

    When Sulu reports that the Enterprise is 500 parsecs away from where it was I thought that it would take a very long time to travel that distance even in the TNG era. We see a similar example in " That which Survives " with the 997 plus light years the Enterprise was tossed. I am sure we can all think of other examples of this.

    To me the heart of Trek is the story of a more enlightened future and the exploration of both the unknown and human nature so a bit of sound effects sleight of hand to fix some of the more glaring distance and speed errors would not bother me but I would enjoy hearing others opinions on this.
     
  2. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why stop with TOS? There's numerous time and distance inconsistencies throughout all of Trek, up to and including DISCO
     
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  3. C57D

    C57D Commander Red Shirt

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    I guess one easy answer is speed of plot and dramatic effort. Only a few days to the rendezvous, so plenty of time for nebula exploration, against being thrown 997 light years away, so a long way to get back.
    My other answer is that to my knowledge, exactly what the warp speeds equated to in real life astronomical measurements, was never discussed on screen in TOS. So there are no "errors" to "fix".
    As to consistency across Trek as a whole - we don't got one!
    However, TOS seemed faster and further than any other Trek since. No evidence, just my gut-feeling. And yet, again just to me, the ship seemed more fragile and "seat of the pants" than any other Trek also.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
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  4. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think TOS (and each Trek show) should be enjoyed as it's own thing. They went way too far with the visual changes in the TOS-R edition IMHO, and altering dialogue would only make it worse.

    That way ends with the sets and costumes CG'd to resemble the Discoverse versions and Michael Burnham CG'd into the background of all Spock family scenes.
     
  5. C57D

    C57D Commander Red Shirt

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    This way lies madness !!
     
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  6. Phaser Two

    Phaser Two Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Angels and ministers of grace defend us.
     
  7. Phaser Two

    Phaser Two Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Yeah, agreed; if we're altering dialogue in the Trek shows I'm going to vote for attacking that project in reverse chronological order.
     
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  8. 1001001

    1001001 Boorish Jackass Moderator

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  9. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    First "they" design a consistent warp speed scale and bring in the warp speed cops to correct all speed/distance references that disagree with the new formula.
    Next "they" design a consistent stardate time scale and bring in the stardate time cops to correct all stardate references that disagree with the new system.
    Where does it stop? I'm in favor of it as long as "they" are "me", otherwise, pass. :thumbdown:
     
  10. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The inconsistencies mentioned only affect our thoughts when we think of the other shows like TNG, DS9 and especially VOY! Before those we thought the ship could travel anywhere in the galaxy but not beyond it! Science today proves the great distances even within this small grouping of stars let alone the entire galaxy! :techman:
    JB
     
  11. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    It makes more sense of Parsecs in this era of Star Trek aren't the same unit of measurement that they are today. Parsecs could be considerably smaller. Maybe parsec is actually a shortened form of "partial sector."

    How dare you?! Michael Burnham would be CG'd into ALL scenes. and not in the background but the instigator and resolution of ALL the action.

    YOU ARE NOT OF THE BODY!!!!
     
  12. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    Long-distance travel didn't take as long in TOS. Pike and co. were all the way on the other side of the galaxy when they encountered Talos.

    Kor
     
  13. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    While still fast, that other side doesn't have to be across the diameter, but could be across the z-axis.

    "My name is Christopher Pike, commander of the space vehicle Enterprise from a stellar group at the other end of this galaxy."

    A circle doesn't have an "end". A cylinder does have "ends" so that would make more sense based on the dialogue.
     
  14. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Blakes 7 also made this error by Space Commander Travis mentioning that he had pursued Blake into this galaxy, in the episode Duel, where as later on in the episode Star One we learn of an Andromedan invasion fleet on the very edge of our island galaxy and that intergalactic flight was not really possible due to the great distances between the galaxies! (A fact that Star Trek had given us way back in By Any Other Name in 1968!!!) :techman:
    JB
     
  15. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ha! That's more or less the explanation I came up with myself. I even did a whole thread on it a few years back, but sadly did not convince many :weep:
     
  16. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    ONE PROBLEM WITH TWO POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:

    THE PROBLEM:


    In "Menagerie Part 1:

    And:

    And:

    Rigel VII is usually assumed to be a planet orbiting Rigel, or Beta Orionis, a star about 860 light years from Earth, and the Vega Colony is usually assumed to be on a planet orbiting the star Vega, or Alpha Lyrae, a star 25 light years from Earth. And if the Enterprise headed straight from Rigel to Vega, Talos IV would be somewhere on the surface of a cylinder with a radius of 18 light years around the direct route from Rigel to Vega.

    But Spock also says:

    The "routine patrol" part indicates that maybe the Enterprise didn't change course and head straight from Rigel to Vega with the wounded from the fight on Rigel VII. Perhaps the Enterprise had a predetermined course that was a circle or other curve and Rigel and Vega were two points on that curve.

    When the Talosians give Pike the illusion of the fight on Rigel VII in "The Menagerie Part 2":

    So if two weeks are 14 days, and allowing for rounding, the fight on Rigel VII should have been about 10 to 18 days earlier. So the voyage from Rigel to where they intercepted the message, and then 18 light years to Talos IV, apparently took 10 to 18 days. So the speed of the Enterprise should have been at least 1 to 1.8 light years per day, or at least 365.25 to 657.45 times the speed of light.

    In "The Cage", but not in "The Menagerie Part 2", the scene in the parkland outside of Mojave includes:

    So if it took less than 24 hours to travel 18 light years, time warp factor seven should be at least 0.75 light years per hour, or at least 18 light years per day, or at least 6,574.5 times the speed of light. And the Enterprise should have traveled at least a total of 180 to 324 light years from Rigel if it made the entire trip at time warp factor seven.

    Of course some people don't accept "The Cage" as canon except for the parts included in "The Menagerie", which changes the calculations.

    So when Pike tells the Talosians:

    It seems quite probable that Pike was exaggerating the distance between Talos IV and Earth, to protect Earth (and the Federation) against unknown aliens who might be planning to invade. At a speed of between 365.25 to 6,574.5 times the speed of light, the Enterprise could have traveled 10 to 324 light years from Rigel in 10 to 18 days.

    Even if it took the Enterprise only 1 hour to travel 18 light years to Talos IV, that would give it a speed of "only" 157,788 times the speed of light. At that speed the Enterprise would travel between 180 to 7,776 light years in 10 to 18 days.

    If "the other end of this galaxy" is defined as any place in the half of the galaxy that is on the other side of the galactic central spot, Talos IV would have to be on the other side of a line bisecting the galaxy through the center of the galaxy and perpendicular to a line from Earth to the center of the galaxy.

    The central point of our galaxy is now considered to be 26,490 light years, plus or minus 100 light years, from Earth. Old astronomy books from the 1960s would probably have put the distance from Earth to the center of the galaxy somewhere between about 20,000 and 30,000 light years, if I remember correctly. So it seems very improbable that the Enterprise could have traveled to even the nearest point in the other half of the galaxy in two weeks at the speeds indicated by "The Menagerie".

    So if Pike wasn't lying to the Talosians, or if the Talosian images weren't lying to those who received them in the court martial of Spock, then Pike's statement must have been correct according to some other definition of "the other end of this galaxy".

    SOLUTION NUMBER ONE:

    The galactic plane is a circular plane of outer space with a zero thickness and a diameter as great as that of the galactic disc, so probably about 100,000 light years. The galactic disc is about 1,000 or 2,000 light years thick and the galactic plane is in the center of that thickness. Earth happens to be just a few tens of light years on our side of the galactic plane.

    So if the Enterprise was making a straight or curving voyage from Rigel to Vega, which is much closer to Earth then Rigel is, that voyage could have taken the Enterprise quite close to the galactic plane or even across it at least once. And then making a detour for 18 light years might have taken the Enterprise across the galactic plane.

    So there seems to be a fairly high probability that Talos IV could be on the other side of the galactic plane from Earth, and possibly only tens or hundreds of light years from Earth.

    And it is possible that Pike wanted to be as accurate as possible with the Talosians, and so used a space navigator's term for "on the other side of the galactic plane", which the creators of "The Cage" translated rather incorrectly into 20th century English as "on the other end of the galaxy".

    Or it is possible that Pike never lies but wanted to mislead the Talosians, and so said "On the other end of the galaxy" instead of "on the other side of the galactic plane", since what he said would be misleading but the truth - from a certain point of view.

    SOLUTION NUMBER TWO:

    One problem with 21st century colloquial English is the lack for words for different scale subdivisions of the vast universe. There are only three usual English terms for different astronomical scales; solar system or star system, galaxy, and universe, and many people often choose the wrong terms. Considering the incredible scale of the universe, there should be common English phrases for several intermediate scales between a solar system and a galaxy, and several intermediate scales between a galaxy and the entire universe.

    And maybe in the future and fictional setting of TOS, there is at least one English term for at least one intermediate stage between a solar system and a galaxy. Maybe that term could be "galactic region" or "galactic volume" or "galactic area" or "galactic section", and maybe that term might be shortened to "galreg", "galvol", "galarea", or "galsec", or something. And maybe the creators of TOS sometimes mistranslated that phrase into 20th century English as "galaxy" when they should have used "region of space" or something.

    One possible candidate for this "false galaxy" might be the "Gould Belt" a region about 3,000 light years wide centered near Earth. Of course the volume of space sometimes falsely translated as "galaxy" could be larger or smaller than the "Gould Belt". And possibly this region of space might be partially or totally surrounded by a force field, the "galactic barrier", that would define its borders and size.

    If Talos IV was on the other side of the central point of that galactic region that was mistranslated into 20th century English as "galaxy", it would be accurate for Pike to say that he was from:

    .

    So I have suggested two possible solutions to the problem of Talos IV being at "the other end of this Galaxy".
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  17. Steven P Bastien

    Steven P Bastien Captain Captain

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    Overall, I don't find the updated visuals to make much difference one way or the other. I think both are good and mostly they did not go too far with the updates, but still my preference is for the original version, just because they are original. There is one exception where I feel the updated version is much better, and that is "Doomsday Machine".

    First, let me say that I actually prefer the original "machine" as it looks creepier and scarier to me. But, when it comes to the movement of the Enterprise in relation to the machine, the new version is much better and makes the situation look more realistic and believable.

    I think a few other episodes have some battle scenes and ship movements which are improved also.

    Anyway, to me this is more important than getting the distance numbers corrected. It is very easy to just ignore the number and not do the mental calculations, but when you see the Enterprise heading towards the mouth of the doomsday machine and then they cut away and go back and the Enterprise is farther away and should have already been eaten, it is hard to ignore that.
     
  18. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    I think that getting the distance numbers correct - the first time - is far more important than getting good special effects. If you play the game of pretending that Star Trek is real, you have to imagine that knowledge of Star Trek events was sent back centuries into the past and into an alternate universe, our 1960s.

    Since the extant of that knowledge of future events is not specified officially, we can only speculate how extensive it was and how much of Star Trek is real. Possibly ship's record tapes were sent back into the past and all the scenes aboard the Enterprise are actual images and sounds of what happened. But even in that case the exterior images of the Enterprise and other ships in space could not be on the record tapes and would have to be 1960s special effects.

    On the other hand, it is possible that only written mission reports were sent back in time and that everything visual about TOS was created in the 1960s, with primitive and backwards 1960s props, sets, and special effects.

    Even pretending that Star Trek is factual, the only aspects of Star Trek that we can be certain are factual, even in the fictional universe of Star Trek, are what is mentioned in the scripts and the dialog. Everything else about Star Trek might be a 1960s invention, even in the fictional universe of Star Trek.

    So I care far more about the scripts getting the facts of "galactography" correct in the first place, or fans providing ways for the episodes to make sense.

    In my post number 16 in this thread, I discussed one of those problems. In "The cage" and "Menagerie", The Enterprise was traveling from Rigel to Vega, a distance of less than 1,000 light years, when it detoured 18 light years to visit Talos IV. At Talos IV Pike told the Talosians:

    If "the other end of this galaxy" means on the other side of a line that divides the galaxy into a near half and a far half, then there is a problem, because that line dividing the near end or half and the other end or half of the galaxy would have to go through the center of the galaxy. The center of the galaxy is 26,490 light years, give or take 100 light years, from Earth, so a star and planet in "the other end of this galaxy" must be at least 26,390 light years from Earth and possibly as much as three times as far from Earth.

    Even though the Enterprise might not have been traveling straight from Rigel to Vega, it would probably not have taken a detour of over 50,000 light years, and was almost certainly too slow to get there in two weeks.

    In my post number 16 in this thread I discussed two possible solutions.

    Possible Solution One:

    Our galaxy has a galactic disc which is about 100,000 light years or more in diameter and about 1,000 to 2,000 light years thick near Earth. The galactic plane is the term for the mathematical central plane of the galactic disc halfway between the "upper" and "lower" edges of that disc.

    The most up to date information I have suggests that the Sun is 17.1 plus or minus 5 parsecs, or 55.77 plus or minus 16.3 light years, or about 39.47 to 72.07 light years, "above" the galactic plane. https://astronomy.stackexchange.com...ow-the-galactic-plane-and-is-it-heading-towar

    It is possible that as the Enterprise traveled from Rigel toward Vega, possibly on a curved path, it might have crossed the galactic plane at least once. And it might have crossed the galactic plane while detouring 18 light years to Talos IV.

    So it is possible that Talos IV is on the other side of the galactic plane than Earth, and that Pike really meant to say they were from "the other side of the galactic plane" when he is quoted as saying "the other end of this galaxy".

    Possible Solution Two:

    Everyday English doesn't have a term for a region of space intermediate between a solar system and a galaxy. In fact, many English speakers get "solar system", "galaxy", and "universe" mixed up. But possibly the future English of the era of Star Trek does have terms for one or more levels of volume intermediate between a solar system and a galaxy. And possibly when Star Trek characters use such a term it is sometimes mistranslated into 20th century English as "galaxy".

    So possibly Earth and Talos IV were on opposite sides of the central point of some sort of galactic region and Pike told the Talosians he was from "the other end of this galactic region" and that was mistranslated into 20th century English as from "the other end of this galaxy".

    So there are two possible solutions and explanations for Pike's statement he was from "the other end of this galaxy".

    In "What Are Little Girls Made of?" Kirk says:

    Kik's exaggeration would be much less if he was actually talking about some sort of galactic region instead of the entire galaxy.

    In "Miri" Kirk says:

    And it is quite possible that they were actually only in the distant reaches of a comparatively small galactic region.

    In "Menagerie Part 2":

    In "Arena":

    Five hundred parsecs is 1,630.78 light years. Since the galactic disc is 100,000 light years in diameter and 1,000 to 2,000 light years thick, 1,630.78 light years is nowhere near clear across the diameter of the galactic disc, but is pretty close to clear across the thickness of the galactic disc, so possibly the 1,630.78 light years, give or take a few dozen, was mostly in a "vertical" direction across the galactic plane and through most of the thickness of the galactic disc.

    Or if Sulu was talking about a smaller galactic region a few thousand light years in diameter, 1,630.78 light years, give or take a few dozen, might possibly be between one quarter and three quarters of the diameter of that smaller galactic region, which might be about 2,200 to 6,500 light years in diameter. Thus if Sulu said "We're clear across the galactic region...". he might be only slightly exaggerating, and it might have been mistranslated into 20th century English as "...clear across the galaxy...".

    In "The Alternative Factor" Commodore Bastow says:

    And later:

    This implies that Barstow received reports of the effect from beyond the galaxy, even though there is no other evidence in TOS for communication with other galaxies to report the effect from beyond our galaxy. But if Barstow was talking about the effect occurring far beyond "this galactic region", and his words were mistranslated as "galaxy", that would not be as big a problem.

    In "Errand of Mercy":

    and:

    I find it a little hard to believe that the puny little Klingon Empire could conquer the galaxy, or even half of it, by defeating the puny little Federation. But if Kor and Kirk were talking about conquering a much smaller region of the galaxy, and that was mistranslated as "the galaxy", that would make their statements much more plausible.

    In "Mudd's Women":

    This would be much more plausible if Eve was talking about a galactic region much smaller than the entire galaxy. But the tendency of humans to exaggerate things by hundreds and thousands of times should not be ignored.

    So these are examples from the first season of TOS where my two proposed solutions from my post number 16 would be helpful in making the episodes more plausible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
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  19. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    The ship moves like a toy. The shot of it pivoting around once the tractor beam releases it is laughable.
     
  20. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Like I said earlier in TOS the Federation has explored nine tenths of the galaxy but in the later Trek shows the Federation has only been to the Alpha and Beta quadrants of the galaxy and not even all of either! The Gamma and Delta quadrants are too far distant and only get seen because of wormholes and Caretakers! And let's not get started on the other galaxies out there beyond our one! :techman:
    JB