Probably means more complex and nuanced than he likes.
DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond
- Thread starter dahj
- Start date
Again. You fail to show what makes his writing "incoherent". You don't like his writing, that's fine, we get that, you hate most things that are well done, it's your thing. But you use words to describe why you don't like him that don't apply at all.
Like incoherent.
Inchorerent:
(of spoken or written language) expressed in an incomprehensible or confusing way; unclear.
Aka most of his work. I read a bunch of his Batman work, and I can't tell you most of what happened, because most of it was incoherent. At one point, Poison Ivy legitimately controls the minds of literally every human on Earth, while also figuring out Batman's identity, and this is just never really addressed again (nor is it addressed in any other comic, which it should be when literally the whole world is basically turned into the Poison Ivy version of the borg collective). Not to mention "Catwoman can't marry batman because he needs to be sad" bullshit. His Mr. Miracle work is actually worse, I could not tell you what happened in that damn book if you put a gun to my head. I think a Matrix rip off was involved, or Mr. Miracle was in limbo, maybe? I think barda is dead, or maybe also evil like the Earth 2 version, or is it just Miracle who might be dead?
On the Marvel side, his Vision run was both incomprehensible and destroyed the character permanently. Vision got the pretty much literally magic ability to make other sentient androids, and then most of them died or killed themselves...because reasons. Outside of grant Morrison and John Hickman, tom king is probably the third most prolific creator or incoherent bullshit in mainstream comics.
Yep, too complex for you.
Its not "too complex" for me, its just incoherent in general. I've read a (at this point) pretty much uncountable number of comics. I know what truely incoherent bullshit is, and Tom King fits the bill. Not as much as a Grant Morrison, but definitely in the same category.
Yeah, I've read a lot of comics too. Probably more than you. King and Morrison require the reader to pay attention and think.
Bullshit. Grant Morrison especially is just shit. When people could reign him in he could be great, like his JLA run. But once he got too big to control, we got shit like Final Crisis, 7 Soldiers, Batman RIP and Multiversity.
Do you realize how pretentious it is to claim that people who don't like incomprehensible garbage just aren't "thinking" about it? Hell, Morrison gets shit from people who are much nicer toward him then me at times for his incoherent crap, Final Crisis is pretty much hated by most people who read or tried to read it. I had to read that shit 3-4 times, watch a few videos and read up to even figure out the basic plot, and that is way too much work for anything, much less a crappy story like that.
Tom King isn't always as bad, but he never had a "good" period like Morrison did, he's just always been a crappy writer, he just switches between normal crap and unreadable crap.
Mulitiversity was genius.
It's not pretentious, 80% of the people who find it such things incomprehensible actually aren't thinking. I'm right about this.
You really just hate anything that isn't a simple straightforward story, or that looks at anything from even a slightly different angle than what we usually get don't you?
No, I don't. I like a bunch of different stories. But clear, concise storytelling is a pretty strict requirement. Even if the story itself is complex, it shouldn't be told like the damn writer is on drugs. Grant Morrison used to do that, have complex stories that were told well. Then he got super popular and stopped caring about telling his story well and we got shit like magic bats that can transform Monitors and create evil comic books while Captain Marvel jr stares at breasts and Super Millenials make you want to never read a comic again among other putrid bullshit. Oh, but because it had Captain Carrot and the Barak Obama based version of Superman in it, its apparently a good book, even if half of it is unreadable and the other half is either a direct fuck you to either specific comic fans (Grant Morrison HATES the Marvel Family to his very fucking core, I don't even know if Geoff Johns hates the Marvel Family more then Grant Morrison does) or just obnoxious trash (the already mentioned Super Millennial story).
That's not even talking about shit like Darkseid takes over the universe through bullshit but he's actually possessing a minor superman character while Barry Allen is back alive but all the new gods are killed (for literally no reason) and Mary Marvel is permanently ruined, oh and (and this is 100% real) if you don't read the Batman Beyond tie in about the future Superman from the Batman beyond cartoon then you miss out on major plot points to this shitty crossover that otherwise has nothing to do with fucking Batman beyond. Also, you might need to read the shitty 7 Soldiers maxi-series that went on forever and was even more incoherent and after this is all done you have to read the putrid Batman RIP because Batman is pointlessly killed but actually not killed its magic eye beams that have literally never worked like that in the history of the New Gods but fuck the New Gods apparently.
So no, Mr. "You Just Don't Get It", I don't just want to read fucking silver age comics. I do wish we got more monthly comics that were something like "The avengers stop the Masters of evil" without making that idea into a badly decompressed 15 issue story arc that requires you to read four other books, that style has gotten really tedious in modern comics. But, being complicated just to be complicated is a BAD thing, and telling the story badly doesn't help.
Grant Morrison, John Hickman and Tom King's major problem isn't that they tell complex stories, their problem is that they tell them poorly and don't give a shit if the stories are comprehensible. Hickman's Infinity is straight up unreadable, period. I have read the whole thing at least twice, and I can't tell you what is going on. It took me 2-3 read throughs and a lot of research to have any idea what Morrison's Final crisis or Multiversity overall stories were. I still don't know how Poison Ivy became the borg Queen in hisKing's batman run, or if Mr. Miracle was actually dead or not. Its not a problem with me, its a problem with shitty writing from pretentious assholes who don't give a shit about readability because shitty editors will pay them either way.
Yeah, a lot of genius in that story. I can just hear Morrison's pitch right now:"Like, its a story about magic bats that can, like, transform people, man. And there is, like *inhale noise* an evil comic book, and the story is, like, a metaphor for people that read comics, dude. Plus they're, like, omnipotent god bats that can change realities because, like, they're magic, man. Then, the bad evil bat dudes have to fight a fucking rabbit, man, and also Barak Obama for some reason. Also, I had a thought: What if Batman and Superman had shitty celebrity kids? You know, basically Kingdom Come, but done way fucking worse, my dude. Or, what if Captain Marvel jr. was staring at a woman's chest, wouldn't that just be hilarious? Plus, what if, like, I did Watchmen with the Charlton characters? I bet no one has ever thought of doing that. Now, where's my money? I'm running low on my "muse", man."
Now, he'd be more scottish about it, but I'm pretty sure that's basically how multiversity started, except I probably wrote that out more coherently then he pitched it, but DC will literally just publish any idea he has so they went with it.
Last edited:
So what stories have you liked that aren't just a simple straightforward point A to point B story? Because it sure seems like you hate anything that adds even the slightest bit of abstraction or non-linearity.
Oh, and I'm actually working my way through Snyder's Batman run right now, and it is awesome.
Oh, and I'm actually working my way through Snyder's Batman run right now, and it is awesome.
Nah, just stuff that isn't liked period.
Everyone has their tastes but it strikes me as so odd how vitriolic it becomes.
Yawn.No, I don't. I like a bunch of different stories. But clear, concise storytelling is a pretty strict requirement. Even if the story itself is complex, it shouldn't be told like the damn writer is on drugs. Grant Morrison used to do that, have complex stories that were told well. Then he got super popular and stopped caring about telling his story well and we got shit like magic bats that can transform Monitors and create evil comic books while Captain Marvel jr stares at breasts and Super Millenials make you want to never read a comic again among other putrid bullshit. Oh, but because it had Captain Carrot and the Barak Obama based version of Superman in it, its apparently a good book, even if half of it is unreadable and the other half is either a direct fuck you to either specific comic fans (Grant Morrison HATES the Marvel Family to his very fucking core, I don't even know if Geoff Johns hates the Marvel Family more then Grant Morrison does) or just obnoxious trash (the already mentioned Super Millennial story).
That's not even talking about shit like Darkseid takes over the universe through bullshit but he's actually possessing a minor superman character while Barry Allen is back alive but all the new gods are killed (for literally no reason) and Mary Marvel is permanently ruined, oh and (and this is 100% real) if you don't read the Batman Beyond tie in about the future Superman from the Batman beyond cartoon then you miss out on major plot points to this shitty crossover that otherwise has nothing to do with fucking Batman beyond. Also, you might need to read the shitty 7 Soldiers maxi-series that went on forever and was even more incoherent and after this is all done you have to read the putrid Batman RIP because Batman is pointlessly killed but actually not killed its magic eye beams that have literally never worked like that in the history of the New Gods but fuck the New Gods apparently.
So no, Mr. "You Just Don't Get It", I don't just want to read fucking silver age comics. I do wish we got more monthly comics that were something like "The avengers stop the Masters of evil" without making that idea into a badly decompressed 15 issue story arc that requires you to read four other books, that style has gotten really tedious in modern comics. But, being complicated just to be complicated is a BAD thing, and telling the story badly doesn't help.
Grant Morrison, John Hickman and Tom King's major problem isn't that they tell complex stories, their problem is that they tell them poorly and don't give a shit if the stories are comprehensible. Hickman's Infinity is straight up unreadable, period. I have read the whole thing at least twice, and I can't tell you what is going on. It took me 2-3 read throughs and a lot of research to have any idea what Morrison's Final crisis or Multiversity overall stories were. I still don't know how Poison Ivy became the borg Queen in hisKing's batman run, or if Mr. Miracle was actually dead or not. Its not a problem with me, its a problem with shitty writing from pretentious assholes who don't give a shit about readability because shitty editors will pay them either way.
"Like, its a story about magic bats that can, like, transform people, man. And there is, like *inhale noise* an evil comic book, and the story is, like, a metaphor for people that read comics, dude. Plus they're, like, omnipotent god bats that can change realities because, like, they're magic, man. Then, the bad evil bat dudes have to fight a fucking rabbit, man, and also Barak Obama for some reason. Also, I had a thought: What if Batman and Superman had shitty celebrity kids? You know, basically Kingdom Come, but done way fucking worse, my dude. Or, what if Captain Marvel jr. was staring at a woman's chest, wouldn't that just be hilarious? Plus, what if, like, I did Watchmen with the Charlton characters? I bet no one has ever thought of doing that. Now, where's my money? I'm running low on my "muse", man."
Now, he'd be more scottish about it, but I'm pretty sure that's basically how multiversity started, except I probably wrote that out more coherently then he pitched it, but DC will literally just publish any idea he has so they went with it.
Am I supposed to try to go through everything I've ever read and make a damn list? I don't keep track of what I like it various little piles. I remember what I like, but after over a decade of reading a shit load of comics, I can't exactly whip out names off the top of my head based on really specific criteria. But, I can go for the obvious and say all the pre-famous era Grant Morrison DC/Marvel work. His JLA run and X-Men run specifically were both good and readable (although his X-Men run was ugly to the point of causing readability problems, Frank Quitely is a really shitty artist who Morrison unfortunately seems to love) even with his weird complexity, because he wasn't a "rockstar" writer and he still had to listen to editors. Once he got too big he was basically just allowed to shit out anything, especially for DC which has a bad history of letting famous writers do pretty much anything (see all of Frank Miller's DC work post 80s for how much leeway DC gives a famous writer).
Also, what the fuck is wrong with Point A to Point B storytelling, other then it makes some people feel superior to shit on actually solid storytelling? Its certainly not inferior to convoluted bullshit. No story should require academic levels of study to try to decode what the fuck is going on. I shouldn't have to read fucking essays, watch videos, read wikis etc to understand a fucking story. Its pretentiousness at best and incompetence at worse when a writer goes as bad as Morrison, Hickman and King. The really shitty thing is all the people who praise their shit even when they don't understand it any more then anyone else does. Is there anyone besides John Hickman that actually knows what the fuck his Infinity event was even about? Not just based off reading that shitty event by itself. Same goes for basically everything Morrison has done in the last decade, and pretty much all of Tom King's crap.
As for Scott Snyder, the man doesn't understand Batman or good writing, and is easily the second worst Batman writer after grant Morrison (although at least Morrison did one or two interesting things, and when it comes to writing Joker specifically Snyder is the worst writer to ever touch that character).
I didn't expect you to go through everything you've read, I just figured if there was something you liked that was more complex than your standard story, you might remember.
Haven't read any of that stuff so I can't really comment on it.
Frank Quietly did artwork in All-Star Superman, right? Because I loved the art in that.
I never said there was anything wrong with straight forward storytelling, I just also enjoy it when things get a bit more complex. A good mindfuck from time to time can be a lot of fun.
Yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree with you here, I am absolutely loving Snyder's Batman.
Apparently, Dwayne Johnson liked working with his director of "Jungle Cruise", because he's hired Jaume Collet-Serra to direct "Black Adam".
As the years go by, I have started to consider The Rock's Black Adam film to be in the same category as that Channing Tatum Gambit film, something that is always "almost definitely happening", but never gets made. I hope Black Adam does get made because I really enjoy The Rock's work, but at this point I'll believe it when shooting starts.
A couple of random items of DCEU-related interest I've run across lately:
1. Zack Snyder revealed recently that Man of Steel's Lois Lane casting came down to Amy Adams or Zoe Saldana. I love Adams's Lois, but Saldana could definitely have worked also. And she would probably have brought a bit more overt aggressiveness to the character, for those who perceive Adams as too "soft."
Source: https://comicbookdebate.com/2019/05/20/exclusive-an-interview-with-zack-snyder/
2. A comics insider named Patrick Gerard recently reported that the Clark/Lois relationship as portrayed in Snyder's movies led to the decision in the comics basically to replace the "New 52" version of Superman, who was involved with Wonder Woman (
), with the previous "post-Crisis" incarnation of the character, who is married to Lois (
). So I guess thanks to Snyder for restoring comics' most enduring romance to its proper place.
Source: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/0...ck-gerard-jeph-loeb-dan-didio-eddie-berganza/
1. Zack Snyder revealed recently that Man of Steel's Lois Lane casting came down to Amy Adams or Zoe Saldana. I love Adams's Lois, but Saldana could definitely have worked also. And she would probably have brought a bit more overt aggressiveness to the character, for those who perceive Adams as too "soft."
Source: https://comicbookdebate.com/2019/05/20/exclusive-an-interview-with-zack-snyder/
2. A comics insider named Patrick Gerard recently reported that the Clark/Lois relationship as portrayed in Snyder's movies led to the decision in the comics basically to replace the "New 52" version of Superman, who was involved with Wonder Woman (
), with the previous "post-Crisis" incarnation of the character, who is married to Lois (). So I guess thanks to Snyder for restoring comics' most enduring romance to its proper place.Source: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/0...ck-gerard-jeph-loeb-dan-didio-eddie-berganza/
A couple of random items of DCEU-related interest I've run across lately:
2. A comics insider named Patrick Gerard recently reported that the Clark/Lois relationship as portrayed in Snyder's movies led to the decision in the comics basically to replace the "New 52" version of Superman, who was involved with Wonder Woman (
Source: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/0...ck-gerard-jeph-loeb-dan-didio-eddie-berganza/
I don't think that was the proper link.