Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[Grendelsbayne]

Regarding the questions:

The Knights will never be heard from again. It's always seemed doubtful to me that that one battle represented all of them, but I think it's reasonable enough that they might think there's no reason left to come after this. After all, Glory 'used' the key, so theoretically they might think it's already gone. In fact, some people actually interpret it that way, anyway, that the Key is used up and gone leaving only Dawn behind.

Willow didn't cure everyone. She had to be touching to make the spell work and she only had the one opportunity, unfortunately.

I can't recall exactly what you're talking about with Spike, but I can tell you there's absolutely nothing in the Gift that requires any information from Angel. Unless you mean who was on top of the tower? Because that's Doc. Or if you mean who was in his head? Because that was just Willow using her telepathy trick/spell to communicate across the battlefield.

 

[tomalak301]

I can't recall exactly what you're talking about with Spike, but I can tell you there's absolutely nothing in the Gift that requires any information from Angel. Unless you mean who was on top of the tower? Because that's Doc. Or if you mean who was in his head? Because that was just Willow using her telepathy trick/spell to communicate across the battlefield.

Oh that was Willow. I just watched that scene again and in a few cuts they do pan to Willow. Not sure why I missed that.

 

[CorporalClegg]

The whole thing about "The Gift" originally being a series finale is mostly internet apocrypha.

Joss wrote all the season finales under the assumption the show was going to end because the network was so volatile - which is why he never did any cliffhangers. (Unless you count Restless. I don't.) But I mean that in the sense that each season ended with a satisfying closing, not leaving any dangling plotlines should the series be canceled. But Buffy sacrificing herself was always part of the plan and was going to happen regardless. And never meant to be taken as a sign that the show was meant to end.

Add to that the fact he had two series on the air and was already working on a third, people tend to believe he wanted Buffy to end. He didn't. In other words, given the choice to stop or continue, he would've gone with the latter every time. And Noxon and Fury taking over Buffy and DG taking full autonomy with Angel (which he pretty much was, anyway) was always part of the plan.

And he had already outlined the last two seasons long before, which is why there are hints to various character arcs from the last two seasons in Restless. And Benson, Marsters, Trachtenberg, and Caulfield have all said in interviews and con panels and what not that Whedon had had meetings with them about the future of their characters long before the UPN deal ever happened.

Most importantly though is Buffy was never really in the dire straits some have made it out to be. That's not the say the ratings were good, but the whole network wasn't doing very well. Buffy was still the third highest viewed show on the network. And Charmed was only fractionally doing better and was falling fast with the loss of Doherty. And even 7th Heaven wasn't exactly on fire, barely rating about a half of a share higher most weeks. So as it was, there was still better than 50/50 odds that WB was going to pick it up again, anyway.

And I think this is the next part of the myth. People believe that UPN swooped in and saved the show, sort of in the way we think of Netflix/Prime/Hulu "saving" a show today. But that's not really what happened either. UPN was in even dire straits than WB. To put it in perspective, VOY was the only program on the network that wasn't wrestling that had any kind of respectable numbers at all. And they were identical to Buffy's. Every other show on the network was way, way down. And VOY was ending and no one knew what to expect from ENT. So them spending truckloads of money on Buffy (And I believe it was an unprecedented amount.) wasn't about saving Buffy, it was about saving UPN.

And really, the actual series ending works much better as a series ending, anyway. It's a conceptual refrain - a return all the way back to that original idea of the blonde girl chasing the monsters.

The Gift isn't that. It's just the 100th episode. And my favorite hour of TV of all time.

 

[tomalak301]

@CorporalClegg

Now that I’m done with the season what were your three favorite episodes from this stretch of episodes. I’m guessing the body and the gift were two.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Intervention is the third.

It still makes me laugh my ass off.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

The whole thing about "The Gift" originally being a series finale is mostly internet apocrypha.

Joss wrote all the season finales under the assumption the show was going to end because the network was so volatile - which is why he never did any cliffhangers. (Unless you count Restless. I don't.) But I mean that in the sense that each season ended with a satisfying closing, not leaving any dangling plotlines should the series be canceled. But Buffy sacrificing herself was always part of the plan and was going to happen regardless. And never meant to be taken as a sign that the show was meant to end.

Add to that the fact he had two series on the air and was already working on a third, people tend to believe he wanted Buffy to end. He didn't. In other words, given the choice to stop or continue, he would've gone with the latter every time. And Noxon and Fury taking over Buffy and DG taking full autonomy with Angel (which he pretty much was, anyway) was always part of the plan.

And he had already outlined the last two seasons long before, which is why there are hints to various character arcs from the last two seasons in Restless. And Benson, Marsters, Trachtenberg, and Caulfield have all said in interviews and con panels and what not that Whedon had had meetings with them about the future of their characters long before the UPN deal ever happened.

Most importantly though is Buffy was never really in the dire straits some have made it out to be. That's not the say the ratings were good, but the whole network wasn't doing very well. Buffy was still the third highest viewed show on the network. And Charmed was only fractionally doing better and was falling fast with the loss of Doherty. And even 7th Heaven wasn't exactly on fire, barely rating about a half of a share higher most weeks. So as it was, there was still better than 50/50 odds that WB was going to pick it up again, anyway.

And I think this is the next part of the myth. People believe that UPN swooped in and saved the show, sort of in the way we think of Netflix/Prime/Hulu "saving" a show today. But that's not really what happened either. UPN was in even dire straits than WB. To put it in perspective, VOY was the only program on the network that wasn't wrestling that had any kind of respectable numbers at all. And they were identical to Buffy's. Every other show on the network was way, way down. And VOY was ending and no one knew what to expect from ENT. So them spending truckloads of money on Buffy (And I believe it was an unprecedented amount.) wasn't about saving Buffy, it was about saving UPN.

And really, the actual series ending works much better as a series ending, anyway. It's a conceptual refrain - a return all the way back to that original idea of the blonde girl chasing the monsters.

The Gift isn't that. It's just the 100th episode. And my favorite hour of TV of all time.

Well, I never believed it was extremely likely to disappear and definitely not that Joss wanted it to end, just that the original network didn't want it anymore. I know the plan for Buffy dying was always there, I'd just always thought that touches like the vampire opening were added specifically to give it that perfect finale feel, just in case no one else was willing to pick it up. But checking around the internet I can't seem to find much solid information either way, so I don't know.

In any case, I'll agree that Joss could tell a story that wasn't intended to be a finale and make it feel finale worthy, and a number of the season endings (though not all) could fit that feeling to some extent, just not as much as The Gift does. I don't think Chosen is a better finale for the show than The Gift would've been, though. Two different directions, two different approaches, but both incredible climaxes to the story of Buffy. Without mentioning, of course, that the Gift is undeniably better executed in general.

Angel's 'Not Fade Away' was another famously perfect finale episode which was never actually supposed to be the finale, because Joss had a bunch more story planned out for after that one, too. That's probably also a reason why people think of 'The Gift' in this way, because those two episodes have that same grand finale feel that you get from Chosen as well, but that you just don't get from say, Restless or Graduation Day or Prophecy Girl (even though I could see those episodes being reasonably satisfying endings if life had turned out that way). It seems natural, from a distance, to assume they resulted from similar circumstances, just with Buffy avoiding the ax and Angel taking the hit.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

So @tomalak301 do you think season 5 is better than 2?

Also who do you prefer as a character: Angel or Spike? And do you have a favourite couple?

 

[tomalak301]

So @tomalak301 do you think season 5 is better than 2?

Also who do you prefer as a character: Angel or Spike? And do you have a favourite couple?

Right now my top 3 favorite seasons are 5, 2 and 3 in that order.

I prefer Angel as a character because he didn’t actively stalk Buffy. As for favorite couple, Xander and Anya are adorable together.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Right now my top 3 favorite seasons are 5, 2 and 3 in that order.

I prefer Angel as a character because he didn’t actively stalk Buffy. As for favorite couple, Xander and Anya are adorable together.

Well, Angel kind of was stalking Buffy off screen from the moment she learned she‘s the slayer in LA up to the pilot at least...

Granted, his motives were different.

 

[OCD Geek]

The whole thing about "The Gift" originally being a series finale is mostly internet apocrypha.

Joss wrote all the season finales under the assumption the show was going to end because the network was so volatile - which is why he never did any cliffhangers. (Unless you count Restless. I don't.) But I mean that in the sense that each season ended with a satisfying closing, not leaving any dangling plotlines should the series be canceled. But Buffy sacrificing herself was always part of the plan and was going to happen regardless. And never meant to be taken as a sign that the show was meant to end.

Add to that the fact he had two series on the air and was already working on a third, people tend to believe he wanted Buffy to end. He didn't. In other words, given the choice to stop or continue, he would've gone with the latter every time. And Noxon and Fury taking over Buffy and DG taking full autonomy with Angel (which he pretty much was, anyway) was always part of the plan.

And he had already outlined the last two seasons long before, which is why there are hints to various character arcs from the last two seasons in Restless. And Benson, Marsters, Trachtenberg, and Caulfield have all said in interviews and con panels and what not that Whedon had had meetings with them about the future of their characters long before the UPN deal ever happened.

Most importantly though is Buffy was never really in the dire straits some have made it out to be. That's not the say the ratings were good, but the whole network wasn't doing very well. Buffy was still the third highest viewed show on the network. And Charmed was only fractionally doing better and was falling fast with the loss of Doherty. And even 7th Heaven wasn't exactly on fire, barely rating about a half of a share higher most weeks. So as it was, there was still better than 50/50 odds that WB was going to pick it up again, anyway.

And I think this is the next part of the myth. People believe that UPN swooped in and saved the show, sort of in the way we think of Netflix/Prime/Hulu "saving" a show today. But that's not really what happened either. UPN was in even dire straits than WB. To put it in perspective, VOY was the only program on the network that wasn't wrestling that had any kind of respectable numbers at all. And they were identical to Buffy's. Every other show on the network was way, way down. And VOY was ending and no one knew what to expect from ENT. So them spending truckloads of money on Buffy (And I believe it was an unprecedented amount.) wasn't about saving Buffy, it was about saving UPN.

And really, the actual series ending works much better as a series ending, anyway. It's a conceptual refrain - a return all the way back to that original idea of the blonde girl chasing the monsters.

The Gift isn't that. It's just the 100th episode. And my favorite hour of TV of all time.

Buffy was cancelled by The WB due to a falling out with 20th Century Fox Television over what percentage each company would get of Buffy's syndication earnings. After after the cancellation, all of the major US broadcast networks put in bids to save the show and reap it's young ratings demographic. The reason Whedon went with UPN (who offered a much lower budget than the Big Four) was due to them guaranteeing two seasons.

You're right that Whedon didn't intend Buffy to end with Season 5, but Season 5 was the end of the story the Whedon had planned out during the end of Season 2. He then gave the series to Marti Noxon who had a two year plan for the show, hence why they took the UPN deal. Whedon had some vague plans of where the characters would go, bit they weren't as concrete as his plans for Seasons 3-5. In fact, that "Season 6 premiere was almost completely different thanks to George Lucas" story that's coming up would have radically altered the entire season too.

Whedon then left to join Angel's writing staff under David Greenwalt (after having a lot of fun hanging out there during his downtime while working on Buffy: Season 5) while working on some smaller projects on the side: his Fray comic miniseries, the Buffy musical and the feature-length pilot for Tim Minear's Firefly (Minear would later convince Whedon to join him as his co-exec/second-in-command). Angel was 100% Geenwalt's from the beginning. Whedon's only involvement in Season 1 after co-writing/directing the pilot was writing the dialogue for a certain character in a later episode at Tim Minear's request.

After being blown away by the final five episodes of its first season and the promise the show now had, Whedon spent all his downtime in Angel's writers room brainstorming and spitballing ideas with everyone. He encouraged all the Buffy and, eventually, Firefly writers to do the same. Seasons 2-5 of Angel was basically a creative writing jam session between some of the most talented genre writers on television.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

So now you get the jokes we were making about not remembering the connection between Ben and Glory.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

So now you get the jokes we were making about not remembering the connection between Ben and Glory.

What connection? Did I miss something?

 

[Forbin]

Tomalak, now you can see why I was amused when you said you hoped the finale "stuck the landing." Buffy herself certainly did!

 

[tomalak301]

Well, Angel kind of was stalking Buffy off screen from the moment she learned she‘s the slayer in LA up to the pilot at least...

Granted, his motives were different.

That is true, but having pictures plastered on your wall, making a mannequin, and then having a sex robot in Buffy’s likeness might be taking things a little to far.

@Forbin

Yeah. It was a literal sticking the landing.

@JirinPanthosa

And what a great joke it was. I don’t think Memes were a thing in 2001, but if that was done today I could easily see it becoming a meme on twitter and around social media. Maybe it already is.

 

[JD]

Buffy was cancelled by The WB due to a falling out with 20th Century Fox Television over what percentage each company would get of Buffy's syndication earnings. After after the cancellation, all of the major US broadcast networks put in bids to save the show and reap it's young ratings demographic. The reason Whedon went with UPN (who offered a much lower budget than the Big Four) was due to them guaranteeing two seasons.

You're right that Whedon didn't intend Buffy to end with Season 5, but Season 5 was the end of the story the Whedon had planned out during the end of Season 2. He then gave the series to Marti Noxon who had a two year plan for the show, hence why they took the UPN deal. Whedon had some vague plans of where the characters would go, bit they weren't as concrete as his plans for Seasons 3-5. In fact, that "Season 6 premiere was almost completely different thanks to George Lucas" story that's coming up would have radically altered the entire season too.

Whedon then left to join Angel's writing staff under David Greenwalt (after having a lot of fun hanging out there during his downtime while working on Buffy: Season 5) while working on some smaller projects on the side: his Fray comic miniseries, the Buffy musical and the feature-length pilot for Tim Minear's Firefly (Minear would later convince Whedon to join him as his co-exec/second-in-command). Angel was 100% Geenwalt's from the beginning. Whedon's only involvement in Season 1 after co-writing/directing the pilot was writing the dialogue for a certain character in a later episode at Tim Minear's request.

After being blown away by the final five episodes of its first season and the promise the show now had, Whedon spent all his downtime in Angel's writers room brainstorming and spitballing ideas with everyone. He encouraged all the Buffy and, eventually, Firefly writers to do the same. Seasons 2-5 of Angel was basically a creative writing jam session between some of the most talented genre writers on television.

That's pretty cool, I didn't know any of this.

 

[OCD Geek]

You're now heading into the Noxon Era of the show. Here's all of Mutant Enemy's showrunners and their second-in-commands for future reference.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Seasons 1-3
Showrunner: Joss Whedon
Co-exec: David Greenwalt
Originally supposed to be Buffy's showrunner; left when he received his own spin-off.

Seasons 4-5
Showrunner: Joss Whedon
Stepped down after completing his story to pursue other projects.
Co-exec: Marti Noxon

Season 6
Showrunner: Marti Noxon
Co-exec: David Fury
Quit due to "The Controversial Scene" and its emotional behind-the-scenes fallout. Jumped ship to Angel to be incoming showrunner Jeffrey Bell's co-exec.

Season 7
Showrunner: Marti Noxon
Contrary popular belief, Noxon remained the showrunner for Buffy's final season. Whedon guest wrote/directed the season premiere and series finale plus moved Noxon's executive producer credit from the final title card to the opening in order to take the external heat from fans and TV critics of of her. Internal heat from the cast and crew, on the other hand? Whew. In hindsight it's not surprising that Noxon's been let go from every single showrunning gig she's had since over "creative differences" after only a season or less (Brothers & Sisters, Private Practice, UnREAL). She was on Brothers & Sisters for only four months.
Co-exec: Jane Espenson

Angel
Seasons 1-3
Showrunner: David Greenwalt
Quit for the same reason Amy Sherman-Palladino quit Gilmore Girls. He felt he deserved a two-year contract renewal from The WB, but they'd only give him a one year deal. Left to work on Miracles for ABC, where he was contractually forbidden to consult on Angel. Didn't stop Greenwalt from calling his friends who happened to be in Angel's writers room at the time of the call.
Co-exec: Tim Minear
Became co-exec midway through Angel's first season after Greenwalt fired the rest of the writing staff. The remaining episodes of the season that weren't written by Buffy writers or friends (Jim Kouf and Howard Gordon) were heavily re-written by the two of them. Whedon promised Greenwalt he'd never steal Minear from him. When Greenwalt quit the show, Whedon stole him to be Firefly's showrunner.

Seasons 4-5
Showrunner: Jeffrey Bell
Season 4 was his first time showrunning anything. Joss Whedon and Tim Minear would stop by to help him when they weren't busy with Firefly, while David Greenwalt would call in from ABC to help out too. In Season 5 the training wheels came off to marvelous effect.
Co-exec: David Fury

Firefly
Feature-length pilot
Showrunner/Writer/Director: Joss Whedon

Thirteen episode run
Showrunner: Tim Minear
Co-exec: Joss Whedon

Serenity (feature film series finale)
Writer/director: Joss Whedon
Whedon asked Minear to co-write the screenplay with him, but Minear didn't want to abandon his already cancelled (but still in production for a few more episodes) Wonderfalls. He turned down Jeffrey Bell's offer to write the episode before Angel's two-part series finale for the same reason.

Dollhouse
Season 1
Showrunners: Elizabeth Craft & Sarah Fain
Forcibly reassigned as the new showrunners for Lie to Me against their will by Fox (!).
Co-exec: Tim Minear

Season 2
Showrunner: Tim Minear
Co-execs: Tara Butters & Michele Fazekas
Brought over because Whedon was a huge fan of their recently cancelled series Reaper.

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Showrunners: Maurissa Tancharoen & Jed Whedon and Jeffrey Bell
Tancharoen & Whedon's first time showrunning anything. Bell was brought in to help them out like Joss Whedon, Minear and Greenwalt did for him all those years ago.
Co-exec: None

 

[tomalak301]

What a rotating shift of writers and co-runners. I was looking at when Firefly premiered and it was September of 2002. We're going to enter a stretch where there are 3 Joss Whedon shows on at the same time pretty much. It kinda makes him the JJ Abrams of the late 90s, early 00s.

 

[OCD Geek]

What a rotating shift of writers and co-runners. I was looking at when Firefly premiered and it was September of 2002. We're going to enter a stretch where there are 3 Joss Whedon shows on at the same time pretty much. It kinda makes him the JJ Abrams of the late 90s, early 00s.

James Marsters once called Mutant Enemy a "dream factory". He's not wrong. When they were firing on all cylinders (which was a majority of the time) they produced some of the most imaginative genre television on the airwaves. Hell, even the seasons of television they produced that were crap were filled with great ideas. It was just the execution that was lacking.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Almost finished.

Watching the penultimate episode.

Spoiler

Watching the First stop Caleb, and let Buffy take the Sythe, seemed wierd, hell, digging it up at all to keep the ultimate weapon for Buffy from Buffy is a real boner.

The only take away is that The First got what she wanted. Everything that happened, finding the Sythe and activating the potentials, is her plan coming together.

In the comics the slayer line stopped for 200 years because Buffy and the Slayer army exhausted the magical source of their power.

200 years of no Slayers seems like a win, if you happen to be the First Evil, and you get to laugh your ass off that the goodies are so pig ignorant that they think that they won.

 

[JD]

A lot of them have also gone on to work on some truly great show, both as showrunners and writers.

Season 6
Showrunner: Marti Noxon
Co-exec: David Fury
Quit due to "The Controversial Scene" and its emotional behind-the-scenes fallout. Jumped ship to Angel to be incoming showrunner Jeffrey Bell's co-exec.

I didn't realize that scene had that big of an effect behind the scenes. Buffy was on long before I really paid any attention to what was going on behind the scenes, or in fandom, so I know nothing about it's production.

Season 7
Showrunner: Marti Noxon
Contrary popular belief, Noxon remained the showrunner for Buffy's final season. Whedon guest wrote/directed the season premiere and series finale plus moved Noxon's executive producer credit from the final title card to the opening in order to take the external heat from fans and TV critics of of her. Internal heat from the cast and crew, on the other hand? Whew. In hindsight it's not surprising that Noxon's been let go from every single showrunning gig she's had since over "creative differences" after only a season or less (Brothers & Sisters, Private Practice, UnREAL). She was on Brothers & Sisters for only four months.
Co-exec: Jane Espenson

Has Jane Espenson ever been a showrunner on any of the shows she's worked on? She's written great episodes of some of my favorite shows, and if she hasn't been a showrunner yet, she really deserves to be.

Firefly
Feature-length pilot
Showrunner/Writer/Director: Joss Whedon

Thirteen episode run
Showrunner: Tim Minear
Co-exec: Joss Whedon

Huh, I'd always assumed Whedon was the showrunner for Firefly.

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Showrunners: Maurissa Tancharoen & Jed Whedon and Jeffrey Bell
Tancharoen & Whedon's first time showrunning anything. Bell was brought in to help them out like Joss Whedon, Minear and Greenwalt did for him all those years ago.
Co-exec: None

Just as a bit of an FYI in case anyone wasn't aware, Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon are Joss Whedon's sister in law and brother.