Spoilers Avengers: Endgame grade and discussion thread

[Locutus of Bored]

Those people (we all know who you mean) might want to stop picking fights with people when they feel emboldened if they can't handle being countered when they are feeling down.

Every time I see them in a thread they are making belittling smarky remarks.

Don't constantly get into fights and expect to be given free passes because you aren't feeling it that day. Change your behaviour and avoid getting into constant conflict if you can't handle it.

I have depression too and I don't use it for a free pass for poor behaviour.

Well, you have me at a disadvantage then, because I don't know who you think I know who I mean.

If you're referring to Awesome Possum, I made no secret of defending her from Refuge's attack, as I mentioned her by name in my post above. So, congratulations on breaking that complex enigma code, I guess. She's more than capable of defending herself and has done so repeatedly when attacked, but when you see a friend maligned and misgendered by a frequent harasser of hers, it's not in my nature to just let it slide, nor should such behavior go unchallenged on this board.

But Possum was by no means the only person I was referring to and since you are not a poster in TNZ (that I am aware of) and the other person I was most referring to is, you would not be familiar with the incident, and I can not elaborate on it further because it would not be permitted. Needless to say there's a lot of history here you are not aware of.

If you're referring to some abstract concept like liberals or SJWs or whatever, that is not what I was talking about at all. I was talking about individuals here who have been at their worst and most vulnerable moments and have been given a verbal shove off the ledge by Refuge for the lulz.

So no, I don't think you are fully aware of the people I am talking about.

ETA: Sorry Neroon, I was typing this up before you posted that. I'm done.

 

[Campe]

Anywho....

Tony Stark died. Bummer.



(Just my effort to get things back on track.)

 

[ITDUDE]

Thread.. off... rails. Let's kill this thing!

 

[USS Firefly]

Anywho....

Tony Stark died. Bummer.



(Just my effort to get things back on track.)

I am going to help you.

Maybe Stark gets better in the next Marvel movie

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Gods, I hope not. I loved the character, but we got an excellent beginning, middle, and end for his story arc. Undoing his death would rob the poignancy of his sacrifice and the seriousness of the stakes.

 

[Campe]

I agree. Stark was awesome, but it was time for him to go. His story from really as far back as the first Avengers dictated it. Through Iron Man 3, Age of Ultron, Civil War and Infinity War, he was a man that was more and more obsessed with protecting the world. He did that in Endgame after trying to step away for Pepper and starting a family. But even Pepper knew he had to try.

Pepper: We got really lucky.
Tony: Yeah. I know.
Pepper: A lot of people didn't.
Tony: I can't help everybody.
Pepper: It sort of seems like you can.
Tony: Not if I stop. I can put a pin in it right now. And stop.
Pepper: Tony - trying to get you to stop, had been one of the failures of my entire life.

She might not have expected the outcome, but man, it was poignant. And even her final words to him showed it.

Tony, look at me. We're gonna be okay. You can rest now.

His arc, while not perfect, had much to offer. But adding on to that at this point, cheapens it. Time to move on to other things. Even the directors think so.

 

[Relayer1]

I agree. Stark was awesome, but it was time for him to go. His story from really as far back as the first Avengers dictated it. Through Iron Man 3, Age of Ultron, Civil War and Infinity War, he was a man that was more and more obsessed with protecting the world. He did that in Endgame after trying to step away for Pepper and starting a family. But even Pepper knew he had to try.

She might not have expected the outcome, but man, it was poignant. And even her final words to him showed it.

His arc, while not perfect, had much to offer. But adding on to that at this point, cheapens it. Time to move on to other things. Even the directors think so.

Well I'm reasonably sure we'll see him again as the Stark AI from the comics.

To be honest, I think they got it wrong - I'd have killed Cap and kept Tony around as a mentor/funder/occasional cameo in The Avengers. Tony still interested me and could have been worthwhile.

I get what they did with Tony's selflessness and Cap's eventual self interest, but...

 

[Reverend]

Nah, Tony was destined to go out in act of self sacrifice. That's been at the core of his whole arc from a selfish, self-obsessed narcissist to someone willing to sacrifice not just his life, but his *happy and contented* life for the benefit of everyone.

Nat's arc was similar, but for very different reasons. She was plagued with guilt over her past action and her history, constantly looking to a way to atone. In the end, sacrificing her life so her best friend could again have the family she never could is one of the most noble deaths in all of the MCU.

Steve has been Mr. Self Sacrifice from the off; so that's not his arc. His arc is finding his place in the world. He tried the Army, SHIELD, the Avengers before finally being ready to settle down and getting the happy ending he always deserved. And it's not like it was an inability or anything, it was an unwillingness to truly engage with the world he'd dedicated his life to.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Agreed. I would've been disappointed if Tony's arc ended with retirement/mentorship because that leaves the door open for easily returning to the status quo. Tony was so very desperate to protect the world and that was clear since his solo movies, let alone the Avenger movies. He had to die. Like Reverend said, not only did he have to sacrifice his life, he had to sacrifice the second chance at happiness with his family.

 

[JD]

Gods, I hope not. I loved the character, but we got an excellent beginning, middle, and end for his story arc. Undoing his death would rob the poignancy of his sacrifice and the seriousness of the stakes.

Completely agree, his death in Endgame was the perfect ending for the character, and I'd hate to see that taken away.

Well I'm reasonably sure we'll see him again as the Stark AI from the comics.

Yeah, I could see that happening, and the advantage to that is if they really wanted they could just do the whole thing as CGI and just have RDJ come in to do VO work. With that they wouldn't even need to worry about uncanny valley or less that perfect CGI since the character is just a hologram.
The only other ways I could maybe see RDJ coming back is flashbacks or alternate universe versions, but I doubt they'd got that route since RDJ seems to be pretty solidly done at this point.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Well I'm reasonably sure we'll see him again as the Stark AI from the comics.

I hope not. His arc reached an expected conclusion. Ghost/AI-ing him would ruin that arc, and illustrate how the living characters (namely Spider-Man) cannot mature and accept the idea of a sacrifice.

Steve has been Mr. Self Sacrifice from the off; so that's not his arc.

Agreed--that was clear from the start--the essence of who Steve Rogers was. It was pre-enhancement Steve who jumped on what he thought was a live grenade at Camp Lehigh. It was an untested, enhanced Steve who infiltrated a Hydra compound to rescue Bucky (and other allies). It was Steve who sent the Valkyrie into the ice to save the lives of millions from the Red Skull's bombs, which is why he could so easily criticize Stark about not being that guy (in The Avengers).

More than anything else, Stark had to learn the meaning of sacrifice from Steve, as it was not a natural trait in Stark at all.

 

[USS Firefly]

I agree his death was necessery and good. I only hoped that we've got another Captain America movie, I liked his movie the best.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I hope not. His arc reached an expected conclusion. Ghost/AI-ing him would ruin that arc, and illustrate how the living characters (namely Spider-Man) cannot mature and accept the idea of a sacrifice.

Nothing says it has to be Spider-man he interacts with. Nor that the people he is with have to unable to accept the difference between real Tony and holo-Tony.

 

[Campe]

Nothing says it has to be Spider-man he interacts with. Nor that the people he is with have to unable to accept the difference between real Tony and holo-Tony.

Still, I question the necessity to have an AI Tony return. It doesn’t necessarily cheapen his death but it seems gratuitous and unnecessary.

And the money to have RDJ show up might not be a smart business decision.

That is until the MCU starts losing money. Then, sure, we might see an appearance or two by AI Tony.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Still, I question the necessity to have an AI Tony return. It doesn’t necessarily cheapen his death but it seems gratuitous and unnecessary.

And the money to have RDJ show up might not be a smart business decision.

That is until the MCU starts losing money. Then, sure, we might see an appearance or two by AI Tony.

Depends how you use it, really. And I think the money would even out, givenn that his name is a huge draw and the part would be more or less cameo level w/ mostly voiceover work.

 

[DEWLine]

*breaks a window at the mention of the idea of Natasha's story having a "natural" ending here*

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Robert Downey Jr. and the Russo brothers sat down with Matthew Berry (a fantasy sports guy) to do a fantasy Avengers draft (three picks total):

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I don't understand how none of them drafted Spider-Man. Fools!

 

[PsychoPere]

Spidey is always the correct answer.

 

[Noname Given]

I hope not. His arc reached an expected conclusion. Ghost/AI-ing him would ruin that arc, and illustrate how the living characters (namely Spider-Man) cannot mature and accept the idea of a sacrifice.

^^^
Given this is supposed to be a comic book, I'd have no issue with a form of resurrection as it happens ALL THE TIME in superhero comics from both Marvel and DC. It's not the real world here.

 

[Reverend]

Here's the thing though; so far one of the MCU's main selling point for a lot of fans is precisely that it *doesn't* indulge in the kind of cyclical-reboot/kill-a-character-then-bring-them-back-10-months-later nonsense that helped make the genre such an ungodly, impenetrable mess in print.

Thus far actions have had consequences, the stakes are real within the narrative, and time goes on, things change. I like that and I want it to continue since now, Iron Man's death and the defeat of Thanos are a part of the lore and the history of the world and as we've already seen in the FFH trailer, will continue to inform future storytelling.