Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[CorporalClegg]

It was buffy's reaction to losing her strength, that if she hadn't become a slayer her life might have been meaningless. Also, she was drugged to take those powers away. I was just wondering if she had that strength all the time or if she was given that strength after she was chosen.

All I can say is assume all heavy questions in pivotal episodes like this will be answered in the future - even if it's a season or three away.

As for the serum Giles gave her, I don't think it's meant to be seen as 'drugs' in the literal sense. I think a magical element is implied. I mean, you make drugs from ground-up herbs and plants and they make potions from ground-up herbs and plants.

And the show does create a parallel between magic and chemistry. Notice how Willow and Giles are usually working their mojo in the chem lab. But there's a pretty heavy symbolic element to this as well. There is a direct correlation between Willow's developmental growth and her chemistry - or the bonds she forms - with others. Think back to the Angel soul spell. You could argue that she was closer to Jenny than even Giles was. And the core power of that spell came from her invoking upon the bond she had with her mentor.

That's what I like about the relationship, and what made this this episode kind of uncomfortable. To see Giles administer the injection was almost like a betrayal in a way, but he was forced by the higher ups to do it. This episode actually added (Or further developed) an element to the series I'm actually excited for. We're starting to go beyond Sunnydale and that's exciting.

I wasn't sure if I should mention this or not. But we are having this discussion about "choice."

Well, there's a pretty popular interpretation of this episode that suggests it's a metaphor of the abortion debate. It's ultimately about two old white men squabbling over Buffy's agency over her own body.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The Zeppo

Hey, Xander didn't suck in this episode. In fact, it was pretty fun. Loved the lack of action to defuse the bomb, and then Jack gets his comeuppance from Warewolf Oz. Despite my feeling about Xander, this episode worked in a positive light for him. Unfortunately, there really isn't a lot to say about it in terms of plot or advancing the arc. Still, sometimes, it's the characters that need advancing and this one did that.

One of my favorite episodes in the series.

I love the way they are facing an apocalypse in the background and it’s not the main story of the episode.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I know it's en vogue to hate the show but it was nice seeing SMG* on The Big Bang Theory finale, even namechecked as Buffy.





* no not Sonequa Martin-Green, silly...

 

[tomalak301]

Bad Girls

This felt like a very extreme shift in character for Faith. I know she was more gung ho about the whole Slayer thing than Buffy was, but she didn't come across as a Killer. The very end of this episode when she admits she doesn't care about killing someone was shocking. As for the new Watcher, that's the best the council can do? The guy's an idiot. As for the Mayor, he's invincible now. He's still not as interesting as the villains last season, but at least they are pushing his story forward some more.

Buffy is now kind of a fugitive. That's an interesting turn in the season.

 

[Turtletrekker]

As for the new Watcher, that's the best the council can do? The guy's an idiot.

You're not wrong about Wesley at this point in time. However, by the time Angel has had its run, he'll be one of your favorite characters in the Buffy-verse.

Fun fact-- the actor that plays Wesley, Alexis Denisof, went on to marry a certain Alyson Hannigan, and they are together to this day. He also had a latex heavy minor role in the first Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy movies as "The Other", an acolyte of Thanos.

 

[OCD Geek]

Alexis Denisof not becoming a major character actor post-Buffyverse is a fucking crime. Dude should be the younger, American David Warner at this point. Instead he has 10 episodes of How I Met Your Mother and his blink and you'll miss it role as The Other. ...under heavy latex ....with a digitally altered voice ...for like two scenes. WHY THE FUCK ISN'T ALEXIS DENISOF A THING????!!!!

 

[Turtletrekker]

Alexis Denisof not becoming a major character actor post-Buffyverse is a fucking crime. Dude should be the younger, American David Warner at this point. Instead he has 10 episodes of How I Met Your Mother and his blink and you'll miss it role as The Other. ...under heavy latex ....with a digitally altered voice ...for like two scenes. WHY THE FUCK ISN'T ALEXIS DENISOF A THING????!!!!

I think he did the daddy thing while mommy was off doing "How I Met Your Mother".

 

[OCD Geek]

I think he did the daddy thing while mommy was off doing "How I Met Your Mother".

Oh, okay. Cool. I can respect that. As much as I want Denisof to be more successful (or Rick Moranis to come back) real life shit is way more important.

 

[tomalak301]

Consequences

To be honest, I had a difficult time writing something for Bad Girls, which was why it was so short. It felt like only half the story, and I wanted to see what happens next. Consequences was a very solid backend to that episode dealing with the aftermath and setting up the season for the final 7 episodes. I was a little confused by Faith's heel turn, but thinking about the character some more and watching this episode, I actually can understand it. She's always been a loose cannon, and she truely doesn't really care what happens to her. I'm actually glad she was the one who killed Trick and is now in cahoots with Mayor Wilkins. They built Faith up some throughout the season that here is that personal connection between hero and Villain that I feel has been lacking so far.

I really liked how Buffy handled this whole thing, especially going to Willow first and then Giles. Also loved how because she is a good compassionate person, she's wanting to give Faith another chance. These final 7 episodes are going to be fun.

I still hope they don't gloss over Buffy being an accessory to the crimes though. She did try to rob a store of weapons and crashed a police vehicle. I can take one comment (Probably at the end of the season) to exonerate her. Heck, she was kinda forced to do all that stuff.

Of the two episodes I've seen so far tonight, Consequences was a much better episode, but like I said, they do work really well in tandem. I even started to like Wesley an inch more. I think he's already seeing what kind of person Buffy is (When Buffy is taking charge and handing out orders to everyone).

 

[OCD Geek]

According to Word of God, Faith is bi and has a crush on Buffy. Going up to the window, drawing a heart with her breathe and asking Buffy to blow off school and hang out? Totally a date from Faith's perspective, despite Buffy's obliviousness.

The show never makes this subtext, uh, text due to how powerful homophobic "parents" groups and some advertisers were at the time, but knowing this just adds even more layers to their already fascinating dynamic.

 

[tomalak301]

According to Word of God, Faith is bi and has a crush on Buffy. Going up to the window, drawing a heart with her breathe and asking Buffy to blow off school and hang out? Totally a date from Faith's perspective, despite Buffy's obliviousness.

The show never makes this subtext, uh, text due to how powerful homophobic "parents" groups and some advertisers were at the time, but knowing this just adds even more layers to their already fascinating dynamic.

Um ok. She still almost killed Xander though, which makes her at this time a terrible person.

 

[OCD Geek]

Oh, totally. But she's also complex. Faith could have easily just been a generic "slayer gone bad", but they gave her shadings of depth plus various hints at a tragic backstory (i.e. "My dead mother hits harder than that") to round her out.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Consequences

To be honest, I had a difficult time writing something for Bad Girls, which was why it was so short. It felt like only half the story, and I wanted to see what happens next. Consequences was a very solid backend to that episode dealing with the aftermath and setting up the season for the final 7 episodes. I was a little confused by Faith's heel turn, but thinking about the character some more and watching this episode, I actually can understand it. She's always been a loose cannon, and she truely doesn't really care what happens to her. I'm actually glad she was the one who killed Trick and is now in cahoots with Mayor Wilkins. They built Faith up some throughout the season that here is that personal connection between hero and Villain that I feel has been lacking so far.

I really liked how Buffy handled this whole thing, especially going to Willow first and then Giles. Also loved how because she is a good compassionate person, she's wanting to give Faith another chance. These final 7 episodes are going to be fun.

I still hope they don't gloss over Buffy being an accessory to the crimes though. She did try to rob a store of weapons and crashed a police vehicle. I can take one comment (Probably at the end of the season) to exonerate her. Heck, she was kinda forced to do all that stuff.

Of the two episodes I've seen so far tonight, Consequences was a much better episode, but like I said, they do work really well in tandem. I even started to like Wesley an inch more. I think he's already seeing what kind of person Buffy is (When Buffy is taking charge and handing out orders to everyone).

Re: Faith, it's not so much that she truly doesn't care as that she desperately doesn't want to care. She has a rather pathological need to be 'above it all' and prove that none of it can touch her, because if she admits that she isn't above it all then she'd have to feel all the shit that she's never wanted to deal with - from her abusive mother to the death of her apparently actually kind watcher (which Faith blames herself for) and all the bad things she's done herself as a result of her own failings.

 

[USS Firefly]

As for the new Watcher, that's the best the council can do? The guy's an idiot.

He is my favorite character in the Buffyverse

 

[tomalak301]

Dopplegangland

Well, we got a follow up to The Wish. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that, but it allowed Hannagin to play a different character and it was pretty fun. I kinda got Major/Intendant Kira vibes (DS9's mirror universe) seeing Willow and Vampire Willow together. Our Willow is so innocent and Vampire Willow is such a dominatrix that it actually worked. It was funny she was sent back just before she was dusted. Also, Angel coming in being all confused what was happening was hilarious.

I'm a little confused about Faith. They let her back into the group pretty easily. Last we saw she escaped the van, went to the Mayor and now she's spying for the Mayor but the group lets her back in? She cannot be trusted at all.

@grendelsbayne

Yeah, Faith thinks she's invincible because of the whole Slayer thing. She even said it to Buffy in that episode. I must of missed (Or forgot) the stuff dealing with her mother though. Was that when we first met her?

 

[CorporalClegg]

Doppelgangland is Whedon's personal favorite episode.

And note Sandy - the woman Evil Willow bit in the Bronze - makes a random, out-of-nowhere cameo in a later season.

 

[tomalak301]

Doppelgangland is Whedon's personal favorite episode.

Does he say why? It was a good episode, but it's not even my favorite episode this season.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Dopplegangland

Well, we got a follow up to The Wish. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that, but it allowed Hannagin to play a different character and it was pretty fun. I kinda got Major/Intendant Kira vibes (DS9's mirror universe) seeing Willow and Vampire Willow together. Our Willow is so innocent and Vampire Willow is such a dominatrix that it actually worked. It was funny she was sent back just before she was dusted. Also, Angel coming in being all confused what was happening was hilarious.

I'm a little confused about Faith. They let her back into the group pretty easily. Last we saw she escaped the van, went to the Mayor and now she's spying for the Mayor but the group lets her back in? She cannot be trusted at all.

They don't know she went to the mayor, they just know she freaked out and did stupid stuff. And the do know they have to keep an eye on her

@grendelsbayne

Yeah, Faith thinks she's invincible because of the whole Slayer thing. She even said it to Buffy in that episode. I must of missed (Or forgot) the stuff dealing with her mother though. Was that when we first met her?

It's not a thing that's ever greatly focused on. Faith makes little comments here and there which paint a picture over time, like the already mentioned 'My dead mother hits harder than that'.

Though, again, I don't want to come off as preaching or pedantic, but I think when it comes to Faith it's a VERY important distinction to understand that what she says is not really what she thinks or truly believes. It's what she wants to be true. She's trying to convince herself just as much as anyone else.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Does he say why? It was a good episode, but it's not even my favorite episode this season.

He has, but I don't really remember. I think it's because it holds a lot of sentimental value for him. I think a big part of that is because it was the episode that convinced the network to let him do whatever he wanted as a director. From this point on, he starts to become way more experimental and really challenge himself.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I will add that one thing about it is it's one of those episodes that improves on repeat viewings. It's littered with easter eggs that you'd never pick up on the first time through the series.