Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by tomalak301, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    I thought he had a little hole he can barely see. I took it kind of like Ace Ventura driving while looking out the side window. It's not safe, but you kind of just roll with it.
     
  2. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2013
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Well, the writers certainly thought your reaction was supposed to be 'OMG, it's a miracle! Someone's looking out for Angel!'

    Gotta agree, though, that the episode doesn't do a great job earning that reaction.
     
  3. OCD Geek

    OCD Geek Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I think that a feel good Christmas moment is exactly what Whedon was going for. This episode was meant to put a button on the whole "How the hell did Angel come back from hell?" thing so that it wasn't a dangling plot thread in the event that the Angel spin-off failed and was short-lived.

    Plus they always made a conscious effort to ensure that fans didn't have to watch one series to understand the other. For any Buffy fans that never felt the need to watch Angel, this episode provided the closure needed for that subplot. For fans that did want to watch Angel, this episode gave Angel showrunners David Greenwalt and (eventually) Jeffrey Bell some ideas to work with.
     
    tomalak301 likes this.
  4. OCD Geek

    OCD Geek Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Oh, now that you've seen more of Season 3 I feel this is no longer a spoiler.

    Remember when I said that Angel, even in its early unambitious standalone anthology phase, was supposedly meant to completely stand alone from Buffy for new viewers but was still somewhat confusing context-wise without having seen the first three seasons of Buffy? 70%-75%* of that is due to Angel constantly asking the people around him "Why am I back from hell?" Constantly. Like every other episode, it seemed.** Any poor soul that never watched Buffy probably asked themselves "Wait. Did I miss an episode? When did he go to hell!?"

    *The other 25%-30% is still spoiler territory.
    **An exaggeration, but still.
     
    tomalak301 likes this.
  5. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    What is odd isn’t that he can do it, so much as cops don’t pull him over for it. Or maybe he uses them as snacks.
     
    tomalak301 likes this.
  6. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    He might get pulled over. It's just he might also kill and eat the cop or cops that do it.

    Jason
     
  7. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    Doh! You beat me to it.

    Jason
     
  8. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    But how does he do it without exposing himself to sunlight? I guess he had shown the ability to survive in sunlight much longer the other vamps.
     
  9. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Location:
    So. Cal.
    :lol: Ooookay, I think I got it. Totally confused me there for a second.
     
    Janeway’s Girl likes this.
  10. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Location:
    Land of Enchantment
    Maybe it's the hair?
     
  11. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Helpless

    I've been finding Season 3 kind of a mixed bag so far, but I really liked this episode. We got back to the mythology of what it means to be a slayer and what it means to be a watcher and the relationship between the two. It was also one of the more creepy episodes (In a Silence of the Lambs/Aliens perspective rather than absolute horror) of the series. That scene where Buffy is going throughout the house and it's almost pitch black almost made me have some fear reactions. That was a great scene for this kind of episode, even if it was a little on the darker side. I know we've been talking about choice and it was sad to come to the realization that in this Slayer job Buffy doesn't have a choice. The way she was treated was really uncomfortable and I'm not talking about mysoginistic Xander at the end. I'm talking about the scene where Trevor, Giles, and Buffy are talking about what just occurred and Giles actually gets fired. It's also interesting thinking back to a recent episode and what Ms. Post says about the Watcher job and how Giles was getting too personal. I'm thinking more and more about what @CorporalClegg said about Choice after the premiere episode and how that is really a theme this season, as well as all the Cults and Demons we're seeing.

    We also had two Trek alumni in this episode. Harris Yulin wasn't a surprise since he was in the credits, but Dominic Keating being in this episode was. He had a bit part, but it was nice to see him in his pre-Enterprise Days.

    I don't know if the show will cover this in the future, but considering this episode was about Slayer "powers" and strength, are the girls drugged after they are chosen? We know they are drugged for the 18th birthday test, but when Buffy was talking about losing her strength I couldn't help but feel like the guy who she met back in 1996 drugged her. That feels just as uncomfortable as what I was talking about above, regarding choice and the freedoms and if the Slayers really are slaves to the job. It really does add a demension to this show that takes it in a dark turn. I'm not really sure I want to go completely dark, but I'm still interested in where this thread goes.
     
  12. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    The Zeppo

    Hey, Xander didn't suck in this episode. In fact, it was pretty fun. Loved the lack of action to defuse the bomb, and then Jack gets his comeuppance from Warewolf Oz. Despite my feeling about Xander, this episode worked in a positive light for him. Unfortunately, there really isn't a lot to say about it in terms of plot or advancing the arc. Still, sometimes, it's the characters that need advancing and this one did that.
     
    OCD Geek and Janeway’s Girl like this.
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Any slayer will do, but not all slayers are created equal.

    The Watchers have an Apocalypse Almanac. They know what is coming and they know if their charge is up to snuff. Some times they can coast through still waters with a lemon slayer, and during other darker times they need hell on wheels.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
    tomalak301 likes this.
  14. Janeway’s Girl

    Janeway’s Girl Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    I always found it amusing that the big apocalyptic storyline is sidelined in favour of Xander’s late-night adventure with the undead.
     
    OCD Geek and CorporalClegg like this.
  15. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    That’s probably why it worked so well. It actually reminded me of the the Bill Murray movie the Man Who Knew To Little. You have this big plot happening but you focus on the “dumb” guy (and Cordy makes that point a few times in this episode) and his point of view. It was actually a genius way to get a Xander episode in.
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    You'all never seen Rosencrantz and Guildenstien are dead?

     
    May 20, OCD Geek and CorporalClegg like this.
  17. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Location:
    Land of Enchantment
    You're spot on about the more sinister backdrop of what it means to be a slayer and her freedom of choice. It's hard to elaborate without spoilers though because this is such a big part of the upcoming story.

    I will say this though. There are two basic elements to Buffy (both the character and the series overall): what it means to grow up and how to define an independent woman. The coming of age thing is the main focus of the high school years and the feminist-positive elements become the main focus of the later seasons -- even though there's plenty of 'girl power' to be had in the first three seasons and she never stops growing up.

    To this end, season 3 is where the two come together specifically in the form of choice. Part of becoming an adult is choosing what kind of adult. Specifically, with you be rebellious and independent and think for yourself? Or will you be obedient and only do what you're told?

    Then there's the other aspect of this, which is those who have influence over you and those choices you make. In this case, I'm talking about Giles, obviously. And, like you were saying, both Quentin and Post tell him he's become too attached. He's raising her out of love and support instead of duty and derision. He embraces her idiosyncrasies and uniqueness and never her scolds her or tells her out to act. You can see this all the way back in their first meeting in the pilot. She makes the joke about the free Time Life phone. And Giles plays along. Quentin or Post would probably have scoffed and scolded her because there is no place for levity in the slayer business. Giles lets Buffy be Buffy. He never forces her to be The Slayer. He treats her like she's her own person. An individual. An independent woman - certainly not the disposable instrument* the Council expects her to be. This will factor heavily in choices she's going to have to make.

    *This where that whole deliberately patronizing bit I keep going on about with the "one girl in all the world." It's the Watchers' way of keeping the slayers in their place. They are disposable and they have a very limited shelf life. If you never expect them to become strong, independent women, then you'll never have to worry when they don't. And if you stay detached, you can treat them like an assembly line. One dies and along comes the next one in the queue.

    Without going into specifics, of course, the big endgame with the femist-positive angle to the show is basically one giant 'fuck you' to the patriarchy. Helpless is the first big glimpse of this because it really contrasts what it means to really be a father instead of just being an indifferent patriarch.

    The Zeppo is one of my favorites though. It is actually nice to root for Xander once and awhile.

    [​IMG]

    Yes, Buff.
     
  18. Iamnotspock

    Iamnotspock Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Merrick (played by Donald Sutherland in the movie). That's interesting. What gave you that impression?
     
  19. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    It was buffy's reaction to losing her strength, that if she hadn't become a slayer her life might have been meaningless. Also, she was drugged to take those powers away. I was just wondering if she had that strength all the time or if she was given that strength after she was chosen.
     
  20. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    That's what I like about the relationship, and what made this this episode kind of uncomfortable. To see Giles administer the injection was almost like a betrayal in a way, but he was forced by the higher ups to do it. This episode actually added (Or further developed) an element to the series I'm actually excited for. We're starting to go beyond Sunnydale and that's exciting.