Spoilers Game of Thrones: The Final Season

[DigificWriter]

And sometimes, in real life, they don't. They work hard. They try. But then they fall back into old or familiar patterns of self destruction. Sometimes all the effort in the world just falls short. Failure defines us as much as success.

Cersei was the thing Jaime could never escape. Maybe he'd done too many awful things. Maybe it was just reflexive, because he'd done it so many times before. But when her life was threatened, he knew he had to go to her, no matter how much he knew he shouldn't. He failed to become a better man.

His failure doesn't undercut the journey he took to get there. On the contrary, his end only works because of everything he has thrown away. The tragedy is in seeing that there can be a better man named Jaime Lannister, and seeing Jaime fail to be that man when it counts. There was a lot of that going around last night.

Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner!

 

[Professor Zoom]

And sometimes, in real life, they don't. They work hard. They try. But then they fall back into old or familiar patterns of self destruction. Sometimes all the effort in the world just falls short. Failure defines us as much as success.

Cersei was the thing Jaime could never escape. Maybe he'd done too many awful things. Maybe it was just reflexive, because he'd done it so many times before. But when her life was threatened, he knew he had to go to her, no matter how much he knew he shouldn't. He failed to become a better man.

His failure doesn't undercut the journey he took to get there. On the contrary, his end only works because of everything he has thrown away. The tragedy is in seeing that there can be a better man named Jaime Lannister, and seeing Jaime fail to be that man when it counts. There was a lot of that going around last night.

Nope. I disagree. The end doesn’t work. It doesn’t work as the tragedy you are suggesting. If he hadn’t spent years being a better man, if he hadn’t been a better man since the beginning to this season, if he was in the midst of that struggle and chooses to not be a better man, I would agree with you. But his actions up to this point reveal that he was a better man.

Until the hand of the writers decided: nah.

 

[DigificWriter]

I was listening to IGN's "Dragons on the Wall" podcast episodes about Season 5 and I can't help but wonder what the podcast's original hosts, Roth and Eric, think about what's happened this season.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It's official; Danaerys is an evil person. She deliberately targeted and slaughtered innocent men women and children. I know the show was hinting at something, but it was really chilling seeing her flip like that and all that carnage.

Over 20 minutes of slaughtering people and destroying things.

Ironically I don't think she's psycho: I think she's just plain evil now. She let everything push her over the edge and threw the the world's biggest temper tantrum. Unlike Jon, Tyrion, Sansa or Sam who've haven't had so good either.

And sometimes, in real life, they don't. They work hard. They try. But then they fall back into old or familiar patterns of self destruction. Sometimes all the effort in the world just falls short. Failure defines us as much as success.

Cersei was the thing Jaime could never escape. Maybe he'd done too many awful things. Maybe it was just reflexive, because he'd done it so many times before. But when her life was threatened, he knew he had to go to her, no matter how much he knew he shouldn't. He failed to become a better man.

His failure doesn't undercut the journey he took to get there. On the contrary, his end only works because of everything he has thrown away. The tragedy is in seeing that there can be a better man named Jaime Lannister, and seeing Jaime fail to be that man when it counts. There was a lot of that going around last night.

True, Jaime's problem was that he was addicted to Cersei no matter what she did.
I think there's this idea about character growth on TV that its goes in one direction and usually towards moral enlightenment. I tend to think on TV, character growth can go either direction depending on the character's personality and experiences (and bad or good writing).

One out of character thing I noticed was Brienne. She was definitely broken-hearted when Jaime left her, but based on what I've seen of her character, I see her more as sulking and stoic or something, and keeping her emotions inside rather than bawling out loudly.

 

[theenglish]

I wonder if Vary's got his letter off and who too?

Will the other Kingdoms rally around Jon especially a large army in waiting like in Dorne.

I thought that he was writing as many letters as possible and sending them out with the ravens and/or his other little birds. We saw him composing two letters in the episode.

 

[Mr Awe]

Nope. I disagree. The end doesn’t work. It doesn’t work as the tragedy you are suggesting. If he hadn’t spent years being a better man, if he hadn’t been a better man since the beginning to this season, if he was in the midst of that struggle and chooses to not be a better man, I would agree with you. But his actions up to this point reveal that he was a better man.

Until the hand of the writers decided: nah.

Totally agree that Jaime had been on a long path towards redemption. I thought when he knighted Brienne that is symbolically represented him finally reaching full redemption. He recognized the goodness of Brienne and that him knighting her would mean so much. Corrupt Jaime would've never done that.

Apparently not.

I can live with the ending by thinking of it as a relapse. But, it sure seems like a heck of a lot of wasted of screen time building up his redemption!

 

[EmoBorg]

I just realized that Samwell Tarly killed more people than the entire Golden Company.

 

[theenglish]

That's not what they did, though. They showed her being cruel and vindictive for seven seasons. We just brushed it off because she was doing it to people we hated. They showed us EXACTLY who she was, just in a way that we wouldn't believe them.

Like, clearly Viserys deserves what he got, but if you look at Dany's face while it was happening. Completely stone cold blank.

Danaerys did not descend into madness. She was always there, just she always directed her madness somewhere more palletable before.

I've been pretty vocal with my agreement in this assessment, but the brilliant thing about the novels is that it is all about those who are seemingly weak rising in stature and power. (The characters "level up" a lot through the course of the story.) Because Dany was originally in a very weak position, even when she was trying to maintain control over Mereen she was clearly the underdog, we were more willing to overlook her acts because they appeared more as justice.

 

[crookeddy]

I am having trouble connecting Jamie and his "I fight for the living" and Jamie "I never really cared about them"...

 

[crookeddy]

I think it's obvious the writers and producers are rushing the ending and trying to wrap it all up. But in the end, it's just a show with cool dragons and a cute blonde that rides them and lots of villainy people. I appreciate the show for it's obviousness and enjoy it on that level. It's been a great ride.

Although it may be to cliche, I hope Sansa gets the throne. The previews, which are almost always misleading, say otherwise. Can't wait.

If all you got out of this show is "cool dragons and cute blonde" then I really feel bad for you. For me the "cool" stuff like fancy effects and long battles are the least interesting, and impressive things about this show.

 

[Xerxes82]

Nope. I disagree. The end doesn’t work. It doesn’t work as the tragedy you are suggesting. If he hadn’t spent years being a better man, if he hadn’t been a better man since the beginning to this season, if he was in the midst of that struggle and chooses to not be a better man, I would agree with you. But his actions up to this point reveal that he was a better man.

Until the hand of the writers decided: nah.

OK, serious question: do you know anybody who suffers from addiction? I mean, real, serious, needs help addiction? Because I do. I am one. I spend every day trying to be a better person, I work at it like you honestly would not believe. Trying to build better habits. Trying to not fall into destructive ways of thinking. Things I know are bad for me, morally wrong, and destructive both to myself and others. I've made it nearly 9 years sober. That isn't said as an achievement, or in search of praise, but merely for context. I've spent 9 years fighting.

I know people that have made it longer. 15. 20. And then a relapse. My sponsor was sober 23 YEARS before his relapse. He lived everyday like a champion, guiding people, seeming to have mastered his disease. But then one night, for reasons even he can't put into words, he failed. 23 years. Lord knows how many people he helped out of tough spots. But it happened to him. After 23 years.

So yeah, I have no problem believing that a Jaime Lannister, even one that came as far he seemed to have, could be lured back into destructive behavior. He certainly didn't intend it to happen. It's not like he did all this stuff going, "Hey, you know what would be fun? If I went back to Cersei!" If you asked him, he'd tell you that he was past it. That he understood just how messed up his relationship with her was. But when that trigger came, when he thought she would die, probably alone and afraid, every instinct he had told him to go back to her.

He doesn't do it lightly. He is full of self loathing. His speech to Brienne when he leaves is proof enough of that. He recognizes full well that he is going back to something unhealthy. But it doesn't matter. He can't help himself.

I can live with the ending by thinking of it as a relapse. But, it sure seems like a heck of a lot of wasted of screen time building up his redemption!

Is Romeo and Juliet a waste of time because they both wind up dead and not together? Why do we care that they had a romance? That their warring families didn't understand? They're both dead and none of it mattered.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I find the argument, "Addicted to a person" not particularly compelling since I work with people addicted to actual substance abuse.

But I'm glad the story worked for you.

 

[theenglish]

I think people are missing a key element of Jamie's story. He didn't go back to King's Landing to join her, he went to King's Landing to rescue her. Regardless of what she had done, he still loved her. Perhaps he thought he could rescue her from herself after they escaped but that is another debate.

 

[FPAlpha]

Although i was glued to my seat and screen during this week's episode and overall believe it's fantastic i am wondering for some time now how the show started a slow decline ever since the Battle of the Bastards.

Up until then no one was safe, fan favorites were dying left and right and only occasionally did a villain get what he deserved. It wasn't as black and white or a shtick by Martin to subvert genre expectations, i.e. main heroes survive no matter what, but it always fit into the theme and story of A Song of Ice and Fire.

Since the Battle of the Bastards and the monstrously stupid actions by Jon (even if heroic, noble and understandable) i felt that the main cast put on plot armor the size of a tank. Of course it gave us many "Hell yeah!" moments and i like these but i believe GoT is even better than this.

Now the Battle of Winterfell is the worst offender in this.. they built up the White Walkers and the Night King as this total menace, a force able to wipe out mankind and they spent several seasons gathering forces to oppose them.

What we got was an underlit battle episode (i nearly threw something when the chief cinematographer justified the poorly lit episode by placing blame on the viewers and their devices not set up properly. Guess what.. no one watches this at the cinema theatre with professionally set up equipment so why not take that into account?), some cool "Hell Yeah!" moments and Arya getting her big moment by stabbing the big bad with a Valyrian toothpick. That was it? No main character death, at best some secondary characters and not even many of them?

So this episode suffers from the same fate.. some OMG moments (which you could see coming a mile away, who bet on Dany keeping a sane head?), some cool battle moments, tons of well made CGI and a brickload of characters deaths, some really tragic but inevitable ( i was really sad when the Hound died, really liked that grouchy bastard).

I don't know if the producers made the wrong choice in shortening the season but it feels like something is missing, a little bit more character motivation would have done wonders to explain certain actions (such as why Jaime, after all the character change still runs back to Cersei or the mental degradation of Dany could have been handled better) so the final season doesn't feel as rushed (even if they are twice as long than a standard episode).

I repeat.. i still very much enjoyed this episode, in general what happened made sense within the show and i'm on the edge of my seat to see how it resolves next week but i can't shake the feeling that it could have been more if Martin managed to finish his books in time for the show to follow his lead.

 

[Cyrus]

After the first viewing I liked the spectacle of episode but the events left me unsatisfied. But I wanted to like it as I have every other episode of the series. Now after watching it for a 3rd time I feel better about it, can finally say I liked it and looking forward to the finale.

I never had any big issues with Jaime's story line. He was already redeemed but finally succumbed to his addiction (as others have characterized it). He didn't kill anyone (other than the douchebag Euron) or do any bad things. He went back to save the woman he loved.

Dany's part is still a little troubling. Yes, they had foreshadowed this many times. But when the character was both good and bad it was more interesting than being just bad. I am anxious to see what they do with her in the final episode.

I agree about the complaints about dragons and scorpions. One dragon was killed way too easily in the last episode, but this time they couldn't even put a scratch on the remaining dragon. They wanted us to worry about the good guys. This would have been more effective if the other dragon died at the beginning of this one to make the battle less of a rout.

I never cared for the cleganebowl. If they had never done it it would have been fine with me. But the way it was staged, fighting on the stairs of a crumbling building with a dragon flying in the background, was spectacular.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

For now, I'm going with the theory that Bran, who could be a gestalt entity acting as a proxy for the Children of the Forest, warged into Daenerys, or at least put voices in her head (lots of ravens about in KL), and pushed her over the edge into napalm-death mode. The aim being to have her removed from power and Bran installed as king. Whether Daenerys will end up as Night Queen depends on Arya, I suppose.

 

[Starkers]

It is an interesting point that previously we've always seen Dany atop her Dragon and it's been shot in a very heroic and romantic fashion. Now we've seen what it looks like from the ground and it's very different.

Has she flipped a little too suddenly, perhaps, has it been a long time coming, absolutely!

God Tyrion and Jon are idiots. Loved them wandering around with that "Oh, Sansa and Varys were right then" look on their faces. If there's any justice Sansa will end up on the Iron Throne (don't see how, but we can hope). Maybe Sansa could be Jon's Hand?

I was sad about Jamie's death, but I guess his obsession with Cersei won out in the end, and of course remember she was carrying his child, something people seem to be forgetting. Jamie lost three children the same as Cersei. His fight with Euron was a bit random but glad that prick is dead at least! And Cleganebowl! Which was at once awesome yet also pathetic, and loved his speech to Arya, even if she seemed to turn away a little too easily.

My God how amazing was Masie Williams staggering through the horror of Dany's attack though. Guess there's only one name on her list now.

In the end Cersei was a bit rubbish (seriously, has Lena Heady done anything but stand on a veranda this season?) but she and Jamie dying in each other's arms was at once completely logical, sorta romantic, and more a little pathetic as well, and I think there was very much an air of flipping our expectations. We got a lot of the things we wanted, just not in the way we expected them, but isn't that GoT to a tee? Isn't that part of the reason it is so wonderful?

 

[crookeddy]

I was wrong about dani knowing what she wanted to do in advance. Writers said that she didn't know and was triggered by seeing the red keep.

Ive been wrong a lot recently, so maybe il stop making predictions...

 

[FPAlpha]

For now, I'm going with the theory that Bran, who could be a gestalt entity acting as a proxy for the Children of the Forest, warged into Daenerys, or at least put voices in her head (lots of ravens about in KL), and pushed her over the edge into napalm-death mode. The aim being to have her removed from power and Bran installed as king. Whether Daenerys will end up as Night Queen depends on Arya, I suppose.

That would actually be an awesome twist i think.

Way back the producers told about 3 huge WTF moments they had in store which they were told about in advance from GRRM - WTF 1 was Hodor/Hold the door! (still hurts like a mother ) and WTF 2 was the burning of Shireen at the stake.

WTF 3 was said to happen at the end of the show.. i hope it's not something as pedestrian as Dany losing it and have my hopes set on the finale for one last huge Goddamm! moment from the show before it bows out for good.

 

[Rahul]

You answered this yourself. They were force of nature, kind of like Borg before the Borg Queen.

As you probably noticed - The Borg had plenty of dialogue on Star Trek, right up from the very episode they were introduced in. And not just a catch-phrase either - they were pretty well explored how they work..

The White Walkers just.... weren't. Yes, they are a "force of nature" villain. But that's just not sufficient. Are they even individuals? The Night Kings' smirk suggests that. Their art, suggests that. And then that would be truly interesting. There really needed at least one deeper conversation hate taken place between them and the heroes.

From the Joker to Thanos to the Borg to the replicators on Stargate - good writers always explain their force-of-nature villains to the audience. And as I sad - a vision-conversation via Bran could have already been sufficient.

As it played out on screen - was just disappointing. Because in the end, they weren't a force of nature. They were just an easily solved plot device.