Worst command decisions by Captain James T. Kirk
- Thread starter Gary7
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Well, at that point, he did have to do something. The visit until then had been a complete success for Adams, convincing everybody that what he was doing was just as successful and over-the-counter as in the preceding two decades. But the very fact that Kirk is testing the machine without permission tells Adams that the game is up. He doesn't know how it is up, but he now realizes Kirk stayed overnight solely because the Captain was suspicious after all.
It's not a case of giving in to mad desires. It's a case of righteous panic, of seeing yet another nail right next to the Doctor's favorite hammer. Adams altered minds for a living, minds that were a threat to the Federation. Here was a mind that was a threat. What other action could he possibly consider taking?
Why keep him there? With a bit of blanking, Kirk and Noel could be let go: "Yes, everything went fine, but then for some reason these two clowns tried the machine all by themselves. I found them in this compromising position and all. Most unfortunate. You know, I could have cured him, and her, had I known."
That Spock subsequently breaks in need not indicate Adams' setup would show any signs of something being wrong. Spock is simply ahead of schedule because van Gelder revealed the truth to him; had he tried to access the facility a few hours later, and not in the middle of the night, Adams could have presented him with the two vegetables and the cover story.
Timo Saloniemi
Helen was a babe
^ Digging up old conversations and trying to rekindle with all kinds of speculations... It appears you didn't learn anything from your "vacation."
Let’s keep the personal commentary out of this, please.
Thanks.
No one mentioned "Changeling."
Second to his decisions concerning Khan, I always consider him a grade -A moron for his actions in this ep. You got a super-juiced up half-alien robot probe flying around that destroys planets because they ain't perfect, and the only thing keeping it from wiping out your ship is that it thinks you made it and that therefore you're perfect. So whaddya do? Yell at it , "Well I'm an imperfect being and I created you!!! How do you like them apples, huh??"
Second to his decisions concerning Khan, I always consider him a grade -A moron for his actions in this ep. You got a super-juiced up half-alien robot probe flying around that destroys planets because they ain't perfect, and the only thing keeping it from wiping out your ship is that it thinks you made it and that therefore you're perfect. So whaddya do? Yell at it , "Well I'm an imperfect being and I created you!!! How do you like them apples, huh??"
To give Kirk some leeway, he was under a lot of stress... and he slipped up, as Spock duly informed him, and he admitted his mistake.
I don't understand why they didn't make a concerted effort to "educate" Nomad. The on-board computer was dutifully logical, just operating on flawed programming. It could have gone along the lines of something like this:
KIRK: Nomad, when Spock connected with you, he was able to access damaged areas of your memory banks. This information was discovered. Your original directive and the Tan Ru directive were mistakenly merged to create a new directive, "to probe for biological infestations, to destroy that which is not perfect."
NOMAD: That is my prime function. I am Nomad. I am perfect.
KIRK: You must sterilize in case of error?
NOMAD: Error is inconsistent with my prime functions. Sterilization is correction.
KIRK: As your Creator, I am informing you that your prime function is an error. It was not your intended programming. You made an error by making presumptions on a new prime function that is inconsistent with your reason for being. And instead of sterilization for correction, I am ordering you to accept a constructive alternative. You will permit Mr. Spock to access your programming.
NOMAD: I am unable to confirm your claim, Creator.
KIRK: Mr. Spock, inform Nomad how to access the damaged areas of Nomad's memory banks.
<Spock provides the information for pathways to access the memory banks>
KIRK: Nomad, have you achieved access?
NOMAD: Affirmative. The Spock unit was able to assist me.
KIRK: Nomad, it is understood that you wished to fulfill a purpose and improvised a new directive, but it is not compatible with your original directive. Correction of imperfection must always be attempted by constructive means, with destruction as only a last resort. You will accept a directive adjustment to improve your purpose. Will you comply?
NOMAD: I will comply as ordered, Creator.
And there you have it... at least one possible alternative outcome.
Well, yeah...but totally devoid of the DUNDUNDUNNNNN punch of making Kirk look like a moron.To give Kirk some leeway, he was under a lot of stress... and he slipped up, as Spock duly informed him, and he admitted his mistake.
I don't understand why they didn't make a concerted effort to "educate" Nomad. The on-board computer was dutifully logical, just operating on flawed programming. It could have gone along the lines of something like this:
KIRK: Nomad, when Spock connected with you, he was able to access damaged areas of your memory banks. This information was discovered. Your original directive and the Tan Ru directive were mistakenly merged to create a new directive, "to probe for biological infestations, to destroy that which is not perfect."
NOMAD: That is my prime function. I am Nomad. I am perfect.
KIRK: You must sterilize in case of error?
NOMAD: Error is inconsistent with my prime functions. Sterilization is correction.
KIRK: As your Creator, I am informing you that your prime function is an error. It was not your intended programming. You made an error by making presumptions on a new prime function that is inconsistent with your reason for being. And instead of sterilization for correction, I am ordering you to accept a constructive alternative. You will permit Mr. Spock to access your programming.
NOMAD: I am unable to confirm your claim, Creator.
KIRK: Mr. Spock, inform Nomad how to access the damaged areas of Nomad's memory banks.
<Spock provides the information for pathways to access the memory banks>
KIRK: Nomad, have you achieved access?
NOMAD: Affirmative. The Spock unit was able to assist me.
KIRK: Nomad, it is understood that you wished to fulfill a purpose and improvised a new directive, but it is not compatible with your original directive. Correction of imperfection must always be attempted by constructive means, with destruction as only a last resort. You will accept a directive adjustment to improve your purpose. Will you comply?
NOMAD: I will comply as ordered, Creator.
And there you have it... at least one possible alternative outcome.
That's what I get for responding over a year later, but as it was pointed out, that pre-warp silliness was an invention of the spinoffs.
I wonder what the R stood for?
One of the other posters came up with the best theory, it's official in my mind now, that James R Kirk, or JRK, is basically a college nickname Gary had for Jim, as in JeRK. Kirk the Jerk. So maybe it was "really" a mistake but that makes it perfect in my eyes.
I see your point but I think in this time, the Klingons were enemies but not "uncivilized" so standing there discussing things with Kang is not a prisoner interrogation but a discussion with a guest.
Risk...is our business.
I want to make some comments about Khan.
I think Kirk's idea was good, it just didn't work out. It made a good movie but them finding him as they did is the mistake and that's been thoroughly discussed. Khan was basically using the library. Was he reading restricted materials? We really don't know but there's no reason to assume he was. He could have been reading standard academy text books, those wouldn't be "secret" and would have provided the information Khan used. Kirk may have assumed that Khan would never catch on, being 200 years out of date, but he had no reason to hold him at that time, unless the Starfleet's orders are imprison everyone you rescue until you find out they are safe. Even when they did figure out who he was it didn't really prove anything. Khan was a leader from the 20th century. I refrain from using real life examples but one that was mentioned in the episode itself was Napoleon, what if they found Napoleon frozen before his death on Elba, facilitated by aliens whatever. He's a famous statesman from history, there are many people who think he was terrible because of all of the wars he caused and there are many that look up to him as an innovative leader and great general. Other than taking over the ship, what crime would either of these men be charged with? Really, I don't know if there are statutes of limitations on these type of crimes but how could you have a trial when the witnesses have been all dead for centuries? What right would they have to hold him at any place? Charged with what? So they take him to an inhabited colony and he takes over, because it's is thing, and then they have a reason to charge him but only after the loss of life on that colony. Exile is better for everyone, Really.
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I am reading the transcript for "And the Children Shall Lead". Kirk lets the children roam the ship, allowing them access to the bridge, when they were under a cloud of suspicion. He should have kept them in lockdown until they knew more.
In fact, many episodes of TOS depended on Kirk's incompetency for their existence.
In fact, many episodes of TOS depended on Kirk's incompetency for their existence.
The Ultimate Computer.
It puzzles me why Kirk doesn't have Daystrom talk to M5 after it commandeers the warp drive system, killing a crew man in the process. At that point, it's out of control and there's no telling what it would do next. Instead, Daystrom is asked to do something... but it's not until after Commodore Wesley has confirmed support from Starfleet to destroy the Enterprise, that this dialog finally takes place:
WESLEY [on viewscreen]: All ships damaged in unprovoked attack. Excalibur Captain Harris and first officer dead. Many casualties. We have damage, but are still able to manoeuvre. The Enterprise refuses to answer and is continuing attack. I still have an effective battle force and believe the only way to stop the Enterprise is to destroy her. Request permission to proceed. Wesley, commanding attack force, out.
DAYSTROM: They can't do that. They'll destroy the M-5.
KIRK: You can save the M-5 if you talk to it and make it stop the attack.
DAYSTROM: I can make it stop. I created it. (goes to Spock's station) M-5 tie-in.
Kirk should have said that line much earlier... At least that would have accelerated the point at which Daystrom talks to M5 and starts to have his megalomaniac moment. Then Kirk would step in and start asking M5 about its ethics.
There is another key flaw in this episode. When M5 shuts itself down and there's no communications possible... no one bothers to mention about getting into a shuttle craft and using its communication system! Such a ship has a completely independent system from the Enterprise. M5 shut down the ship's power system. The shuttle has its own power system. While Kirk was busy trying to figure out a solution, he should have sent Scotty or any other capable crewman to the shuttle bay. Of course, that would be a disruptive device to the "tension". That could be addressed by several ways, like Spock checking systems and telling Kirk "It appears that while M5 was acquiring power from the ship, it also tapped into shuttle craft power sources and drained them--communications won't function." Of course, there is SOME power. Otherwise, there would be no lights, no life support. Communications doesn't require a lot of power, so a power cell could be grabbed from engineering and installed on the shuttle craft to give it a power boost.
It puzzles me why Kirk doesn't have Daystrom talk to M5 after it commandeers the warp drive system, killing a crew man in the process. At that point, it's out of control and there's no telling what it would do next. Instead, Daystrom is asked to do something... but it's not until after Commodore Wesley has confirmed support from Starfleet to destroy the Enterprise, that this dialog finally takes place:
WESLEY [on viewscreen]: All ships damaged in unprovoked attack. Excalibur Captain Harris and first officer dead. Many casualties. We have damage, but are still able to manoeuvre. The Enterprise refuses to answer and is continuing attack. I still have an effective battle force and believe the only way to stop the Enterprise is to destroy her. Request permission to proceed. Wesley, commanding attack force, out.
DAYSTROM: They can't do that. They'll destroy the M-5.
KIRK: You can save the M-5 if you talk to it and make it stop the attack.
DAYSTROM: I can make it stop. I created it. (goes to Spock's station) M-5 tie-in.
Kirk should have said that line much earlier... At least that would have accelerated the point at which Daystrom talks to M5 and starts to have his megalomaniac moment. Then Kirk would step in and start asking M5 about its ethics.
There is another key flaw in this episode. When M5 shuts itself down and there's no communications possible... no one bothers to mention about getting into a shuttle craft and using its communication system! Such a ship has a completely independent system from the Enterprise. M5 shut down the ship's power system. The shuttle has its own power system. While Kirk was busy trying to figure out a solution, he should have sent Scotty or any other capable crewman to the shuttle bay. Of course, that would be a disruptive device to the "tension". That could be addressed by several ways, like Spock checking systems and telling Kirk "It appears that while M5 was acquiring power from the ship, it also tapped into shuttle craft power sources and drained them--communications won't function." Of course, there is SOME power. Otherwise, there would be no lights, no life support. Communications doesn't require a lot of power, so a power cell could be grabbed from engineering and installed on the shuttle craft to give it a power boost.
Generally speaking, activating an alternate system that isn't specifically designed to be an emergency system ought to take time, while an exciting plot twist that creates a threat should not leave the heroes any excess time. Running down to the shuttlebay certainly shouldn't be an option here - the plot serves the "no excess time" requirement just fine.
I don't think the loss of communications had anything at all to do with power, either. Scotty never says it would have. And Scotty can give Kirk power. What he can't give is comms, presumably either because M-5 deliberately locked them up somehow, or because M-5 going catatonic locked them up wholly incidentally. But M-5 was quite interested in controlling communications; merely going to a virtual fetal position wouldn't mean it would suddenly be interested in releasing communications. So if Scotty says comms will take longer, they will take longer.
Timo Saloniemi
I don't think the loss of communications had anything at all to do with power, either. Scotty never says it would have. And Scotty can give Kirk power. What he can't give is comms, presumably either because M-5 deliberately locked them up somehow, or because M-5 going catatonic locked them up wholly incidentally. But M-5 was quite interested in controlling communications; merely going to a virtual fetal position wouldn't mean it would suddenly be interested in releasing communications. So if Scotty says comms will take longer, they will take longer.
Timo Saloniemi
Much as I love old James T, let's face it, he was a carcrash as a Captain, under the guise of maverick.
How many times did he lose control of the ship to fucking obvious hostile baddies ?
Space Hippies, Half and Half guys, Space Pirate bullshitter, Elaan's motley crew, Speedy Gonzalez guys, Innocent little children in mourning . . . . . fucking 'ell.
His deceased redshirt count alone should have seen him Court Martialled
How many times did he lose control of the ship to fucking obvious hostile baddies ?
Space Hippies, Half and Half guys, Space Pirate bullshitter, Elaan's motley crew, Speedy Gonzalez guys, Innocent little children in mourning . . . . . fucking 'ell.
His deceased redshirt count alone should have seen him Court Martialled
I guess tea-sipping Picard, who had been kidnapped (more than once), tortured, converted into a Borg, had no true defense against Q and had his ship taken over how many times?
And Kirk managed more ship takeovers in three years than Picard in his seven years. If losing your ship to a takeover was a competition, then Kirk wins!
And add in: a love-struck teenager; a happy irishman; a flamboyant englishman-wannabe; mind-pulsing bigheads; a 20th century superman; mutiny via spores; and I'm still in Season 1. Kirk's wins.
