Spoilers Avengers: Endgame grade and discussion thread

[Noname Given]

Saw it only once so, I recall them saying the 'future' they came from was their past, something like that anyway. It sounded to me any changes in the past would not change the time they came from, any changes would just create alternate timelines. Since the Time Stone comes back to the Ancient One, nothing changes there going forward. However my memory, the main thrust I took from their time travel talk was changes in the past wouldn't change their future. That Thanos of the past is just another Thanos coming at them. The Avenger's snappy guy still snapped. Sure it's bollocks but I haven't seen a time travel story that wasn't.

But there IS a major timeline change in that Thanos in 2014 JUMPED to the Avengers 'Endgame' present. Putting the Infinity stones back into the timeline won't change that. And IMO that is a BIG temporal WTF as since the original Thanos jumped 5+ years in to the future, he wouldn't be around for the previous battle because he got turned to ashes and couldn't be put back like the Infinity stones.

So, yes (given Banner's explanation of Time Travel) our MCU timeline occurred the way it did, but banner COULDN'T keep his promise to the Ancient One about not creating alternate timelines as a result of their actions because they COULDN'T place Thanos back to 2014. And hell given how scewed up that timeline now is - maybe Barton should go back into that one and just grab Natasha and 'bring her forward' in the way Thanos brought Gamora

 

[YLu]

Regarding timeline shenanigans, there's an exchange right before Cap time travels at the end that's pretty key. I don't remember the exact lines obviously, but it went something like:

Bruce: Make sure you return those stones or a whole bunch of new timelines will sprout.
Steve: I'll trim the branches.

Between that and the Ancient One's exposition that others brought up, it seems pretty clear that the idea is that only transporting an Infinity Stone through time creates an alternate timeline. And that everything's one timeline again now that the Stones have been returned to their proper times.

That explains how Steve shows up at the end. The rules of time travel essentially changed once the Stones were all back where they should be, chronologically speaking.

I'm going to ask you this one time. Where is Gamora?

:P

I mean there's no other spaceship she can steal and run away on. Everything of Thano's army was dusted.

Weren't there a bunch of good guy ships 'ported in at the huge fight at the end?

 

[FreezeC77]

But there IS a major timeline change in that Thanos in 2014 JUMPED to the Avengers 'Endgame' present. Putting the Infinity stones back into the timeline won't change that. And IMO that is a BIG temporal WTF as since the original Thanos jumped 5+ years in to the future, he wouldn't be around for the previous battle because he got turned to ashes and couldn't be put back like the Infinity stones.

So, yes (given Banner's explanation of Time Travel) our MCU timeline occurred the way it did, but banner COULDN'T keep his promise to the Ancient One about not creating alternate timelines as a result of their actions because they COULDN'T place Thanos back to 2014. And hell given how scewed up that timeline now is - maybe Barton should go back into that one and just grab Natasha and 'bring her forward' in the way Thanos brought Gamora

Yea. Like I said the 2014 ("Guardians") timeline and the 2012("Avengers/Battle of NY) timelines are definitely splintered off into alternate timelines regardless of returning the stones taken.

Infact Steve would need to return to the 2014 timeline *AFTER* Thanos left otherwise Steve could create ANOTHER alternate timeline. The safest way to ensure there is only one alternate 2014 timeline is to return to the 2014 after Thanos has departed to attack the MCU universe and return the stones at that point.

It's definitely possible that the changes the MCU timeline Avengers made to the 2012 timeline and the 2014 timelines have actually resulted in more people dying in those combined universes than had died in their own. Thanos could win 2012 as a trickle-down effect of their changes and the 2018 snap(in the 2012 timeline) not be undone and then Ego could win 2014 timeline because of changes to the Guardians story with no Gamora there.

 

[bigglesworth]

Gave it a B+. It was a good MCU movie, though not a great one. It certainly didn't hit the high bar set by Infinity War. If I had to rank it now, it would probably come in around #8 (which out of 22 movies, is still pretty good).

The good:

• Hawkeye losing his family. Very chilling scene. Well done by the Russos.
• The final battle.
• Stark's sacrifice and death. Once again, very well done.
• Rogers finally getting that dance with Peggy Carter.

The bad:

• Time travel. It really wasn't handled well. I get that the past was already established for the heroes and due to some quantum mechanics, timey-wimey reason, any changes made to the past simply became alternate realities, but it just seemed lazy.
• The Hulk/Banner. He really didn't do a whole lot. Furthermore we don't get a resolution as to why the Hulk refused to help in IW.
• Comic relief Thor. My understanding is that Thor was supposed to be riddled by guilt from his perceived failure to stop Thanos and the deaths of countless Asgardians (not to mention the entire universe). But that pain doesn't really carry through to the audience. We get glimpses of Thor's desperation in Infinity War, but in Endgame it's passed off for laughs.

I think that perhaps some time (5-10 minutes say) could have been cut from the middle of the movie somewhere and added to the end to show the heroes that were victims of "the snap" trying to integrate back into a planet they may not even recognize. You then could have the funeral scene (or maybe two funeral scenes, one for Tony, one for Natasha).

 

[Leo Star Dragon 1]

Saw it last night, and I wasn't that impressed. There was definitely things I liked about, all the stuff with Stark, Thor and Romanov, and I also liked Nebula's arc, but without moving into spoiler territory a lot of the stuff that should have resonated with me really didn't.

Overall the film felt messy and like the russos were rushing to get it all done. It didn't help that the cinema i was in didn't have working air conditioning and was slowly becoming a sauna. I also I think at this point I'm pretty burnt out on marvel films, never thought I'd say this but i don't really find them enjoyable any more. I'm going to see it again next week with some friends who couldn't make it last night, so we'll see if a second viewing changes things.

Oh, that's too bad. As serendipity would have it, I didn't get to sit in my usual seat and row. Instead, I got to sit where the AC air flow converges! Nice, considering all of that body heat. Oh, and I was between two young girls and behind a row of teen boys. Their reactions were like a gender study of what matters the most. Like, the girls were excited that, Thor, got his long hair and beard back.

 

[Leo Star Dragon 1]

A

Too late and tired to fully process it but wow. The last battle was everything Comic book fans have been waiting 11 years for and more. The ending was happy and sad all mixed into one and was the perfect note to end an amazing journey.

I just want to thank Marvel/Disney for this decade long ride and the best Cinematic Universe we will probably ever get to see.

That battle! Heh. It reminded me of both, "Keep Away", and, "Flag Football", but with lethal consequences! Now I can just imagine the children in that commercial for some brand of plastic bags, reenacting it a new commercial for that product. But without the lethal consequences.

Very fun battle indeed!

 

[Leo Star Dragon 1]

About Captain Marvel. Should we be worried about the fact that people seem to like this Captain Marvel more than the one in her own movie? Fact is that Endgame scenes were filmed before the actual Captain Marvel movie. So the one in her own movie is the more recent version.

Of course it may be that this version seen in Endgame is the "improved" version. And Brie Larson intentionally toned down her performance in the beginning of her own movie. To show the progression from her movie to this one.

People having problems with, Brie?! News to me. Acting I mean. I prefer her long hairstyle to the short one. That's my quibble.

 

[Gov Kodos]

But there IS a major timeline change in that Thanos in 2014 JUMPED to the Avengers 'Endgame' present. Putting the Infinity stones back into the timeline won't change that. And IMO that is a BIG temporal WTF as since the original Thanos jumped 5+ years in to the future, he wouldn't be around for the previous battle because he got turned to ashes and couldn't be put back like the Infinity stones.

So, yes (given Banner's explanation of Time Travel) our MCU timeline occurred the way it did, but banner COULDN'T keep his promise to the Ancient One about not creating alternate timelines as a result of their actions because they COULDN'T place Thanos back to 2014. And hell given how scewed up that timeline now is - maybe Barton should go back into that one and just grab Natasha and 'bring her forward' in the way Thanos brought Gamora

SnapperT was still in the Avenger's past, they fought an alternate timeline one in Endgame. The Endgame world is an alternate timeline to the 2014 dude. He never snapped anything. He just gets an ass kicking.

 

[Leo Star Dragon 1]

Saw it today, do we have to spoiler code? I will for now just as it's not out yet in places and some probably won't realise and come in here.

Spoiler

So there's too many positives to list, so for a negative- I kinda knew it wouldn't happen but I was really hoping for the Defenders to appear from one of those portals Especially after Jarvis from Agent Carter was in the movie

Anyone spot that random kid at Tony's funeral, I thought so but had to google after to check and it was the kid from Iron Man 3, aw.

I was expecting everything to just reset really, so it was kinda surprising it's now 2023 in universe, and though everyone's back the world went through 5 years of them being gone. And those who came back are now gonna be 5 years younger than those they left behind.
Really interested to see how the future of the MCU deals with this, esp Agents of Shield and Spider-Man:FFH. I'm hoping not but I can imagine it will be skimmed over a lot, given the TV/Sony angle. ie. how all Peter's classmates in the trailer are just normal, so they all got snapped, seems fairly unlikely

Oh and still no Lady Sif

But yeah apart from those things excellent all round. Still trying to process it all, but I will say the SFX of Banner-Hulk was amazing!!

Huh? Hmm. I thought that I caught a very brief glimpse of, Lady Sif. An actual, blink and you miss her, moment. She seemed to have a flabbergasted look to her.

 

[Leo Star Dragon 1]

My smartphone almost died. I really should pay better attention. But anyway, one last quick post. PTSD: Tony versus Thor. Heck, maybe even, Thanos.

Thanos, after the events he described happened to, Titan, probably got it. So his whole plan was his way of dealing with it. Hmm. That thought came to me as I was tapping keys. But anyway, Tony & Thor, both got PTSD, and were given contrasting ways of handling it. Tony, the intellectual perfectionist, seeking a way to control the problems and resolve them. Thor, seeking escapism. It just happened to be more comical compared to the rest.

 

[Ethros]

You can tell this is a Star Trek BBS when we see a movie like this and all we're talking about is how time travel should work

 

[Reverend]

About Steve at the end. It isn't that he went back to the Prime Past, lived there and made it all the way back to the future because that violates the time travel laws that you can't change the past.

What he did was go back to Peggy, marry her and live a life with her and create yet another branch of history where he lived the life that was robbed of him in First Avenger. Then when Peggy passed away like she did in the Prime Universe and he knew the two timelines were now at the same point, he came back to the Prime Universe as an old man to pass on his shield before he went back to the branch he created.

That wouldn't work since he'd still have to return through the quantum tunnel, which he did not.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

level...what bugged me was Captain Marvel.. and that woke movie during the battle in which all the female heroes and only the female heroes are in a frame.. i worry about the future of this franchise

On the contrary, I think the future is very bright indeed because of that moment.

You can tell this is a Star Trek BBS when we see a movie like this and all we're talking about is how time travel should work

And we all act like we know what the hell we're talking about as subject matter experts on time travel.

 

[YLu]

Yea. Like I said the 2014 ("Guardians") timeline and the 2012("Avengers/Battle of NY) timelines are definitely splintered off into alternate timelines regardless of returning the stones taken.

Infact Steve would need to return to the 2014 timeline *AFTER* Thanos left otherwise Steve could create ANOTHER alternate timeline. The safest way to ensure there is only one alternate 2014 timeline is to return to the 2014 after Thanos has departed to attack the MCU universe and return the stones at that point.

It's definitely possible that the changes the MCU timeline Avengers made to the 2012 timeline and the 2014 timelines have actually resulted in more people dying in those combined universes than had died in their own. Thanos could win 2012 as a trickle-down effect of their changes and the 2018 snap(in the 2012 timeline) not be undone and then Ego could win 2014 timeline because of changes to the Guardians story with no Gamora there.

I don't think this is true. The explicit objective of Steve's solo mission at the end of the film was to make sure the alternate timelines didn't come into being. They outright say as much.

Plus, they have a time machine, not a reality hopper. How could they even ensure Steve goes to The Timeline Where Thanos Went to the Future versus The Timeline Where Thanos Didn't?

 

[Claudia]

You can tell this is a Star Trek BBS when we see a movie like this and all we're talking about is how time travel should work

QFT.

I think the hows and whys and consequences will be decided in the next movies/projects. And that's okay for me. Endgame wasn't the place to deal with that, it had another mission which was to bring closure to some characters' arcs

 

[Mage]

I really don't understand why people are making a big fuss on how timetravel work in a universe with Infinity Stones, supersoldiers created by drugs, people flying around in metal armors, kids being bitten by radioactive spiders and walking trees........ Because the timetravel part is unrealistic.....

 

[Mage]

On the contrary, I think the future is very bright indeed because of that moment.

You know what my only issue with that scene was? Knwoing I had to go online after and seeing hurt little men complaining about it. The fact that a scene like that would cause complaints is what bugged me. Not the scene itself.

 

[Reverend]

I really don't understand why people are making a big fuss on how timetravel work in a universe with Infinity Stones, supersoldiers created by drugs, people flying around in metal armors, kids being bitten by radioactive spiders and walking trees........ Because the timetravel part is unrealistic.....

Well, the movie made kind of a bid deal about it...repeatedly...

 

[Mage]

Well, the movie made kind of a bid deal about it...repeatedly...

So? It didn't bother me at all. If people want to make a big deal out of, that's fine. Have at it. To me, it did nothing to undermine the emotional ride this entire movie was, let alone how it's going to make me feel the next time I watch the first Iron Man.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I really don't understand why people are making a big fuss on how timetravel work in a universe with Infinity Stones, supersoldiers created by drugs, people flying around in metal armors, kids being bitten by radioactive spiders and walking trees........ Because the timetravel part is unrealistic.....

It's almost like you're new here at the BBS.