Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

[WebLurker]

I don't have a problem with it being done with some character, but as I said, Colt is an odd choice, since "The Cage" specifically had the Talosians choose her as a possible breeding partner for their program to breed humans in captivity. Also, it would've been better to do a more subtle makeup, like Nhan's -- something that suggests "alien" while still being close enough to human that we can shrug off the visual difference. (Although there were probably people 40 years ago saying the same thing about TMP's Klingons.)

I don't know, there just doesn't seem to be any logic to it. (In regards to Nhan, that was a really good job at recreating the original alien design -- that's what I wish they'd done with the other aliens on the show -- but it was an odd choice to use the Barazans, given that their original episode makes a point of showing a century later they're still not a space-faring people. Not impossible for her to get offworld, but if I was going to bring back an old species, I'd use one that we knew was out and about, or at least nothing to indicate otherwise. Mileage may vary.)

But all that is why I'm still wondering if this is just a miscommunication, the interviewed producer mixing up one character for another.

Don't blame you.

 

[Extrocomp]

That was no doubt the intent -- the script just had a supernumerary character named "Ryan" and Paskey happened to be assigned the gig that day. But fans of the bit background players like to build characters up from whatever fragments are available.

Actually, the script doesn't have Spock's Take over here, Rand/Ryan line at all.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I wouldn't be surprised if they used the Kelvin universe logic of taking names of background/unimportant Trek characters and distributing them semi-randomly to extras.

Add to that, the 2 crewpeople vamped by Krall in Beyond in front of Uhura were the couple whose wedding was interrupted at the start of "Balance of Terror", according to Simon Pegg.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Memory-Alpha, or well some of the contributors have decided to file this Colt a separate character.

If that sticks, who knows. It's not a hive mind.

By the way, i wonder why the guys at memory alpha haven't updated the San Francisco and Starfleet Headquarter entries by now.

Last time i looked (yesterday) the new shots from the season finale still weren't there.

 

[Christopher]

Right, but since that info was cut from the released movie (or at least the specific info about London, if not her mother's surname, which I guess could be inferred somewhat from her conversation with Spock), not too many casual fans would be aware of that bit of backstory, as opposed to the more ardent fans who've watched the deleted scenes on the Blu-Ray.

It's easy enough to deduce just from the fact that her father Admiral Marcus operated out of London. And just in general, it's understood that alternate-universe versions of characters can have differences even if they aren't explained (for instance, how the hell is Chekov 4 years older?). So it's a different dynamic from a change in the portrayal of a Prime-Universe character (for instance, why is Saavik suddenly less emotional, or why is Zefram Cochrane decades older than he canonically should be in 2063?).

(In regards to Nhan, that was a really good job at recreating the original alien design

Actually they changed it quite a bit. Premier Bhavani in "The Price" had a relatively elaborate bumpy-forehead appliance, but Nhan just has pronounced brow ridges and an otherwise smooth forehead. Clearly they simplified the prosthetic to be more attractive and easier to apply on a semi-regular basis, much the same logic as DS9's redesign of the Trill makeup for Terry Farrell, though not quite as drastic.

but it was an odd choice to use the Barazans, given that their original episode makes a point of showing a century later they're still not a space-faring people. Not impossible for her to get offworld, but if I was going to bring back an old species, I'd use one that we knew was out and about, or at least nothing to indicate otherwise.

Just because you don't have space travel yourself, that doesn't mean you can't participate in the galaxy, assuming you were initially contacted by a society without a Prime Directive. Bhavani says in "The Price" that her world's environment is inhospitable to most other life forms -- presumably meaning offworlders, as opposed to native animals and such. Yet she also says that their planet has been completely dependent on others for generations. The implication is that Barzan II has been part of the interstellar community and economy for generations, but as a client state of other worlds rather than an independent economy of its own. Maybe it's a former subject world or protectorate of an interstellar state and has since gained its independence, and is struggling to establish itself economically as a post-colonial power.

So even without their own spacefaring capability, the Barzans are clearly a people who were in contact with the interstellar community generations before TNG. So there's no inconsistency here.

 

[WebLurker]

Actually they changed it quite a bit. Premier Bhavani in "The Price" had a relatively elaborate bumpy-forehead appliance, but Nhan just has pronounced brow ridges and an otherwise smooth forehead. Clearly they simplified the prosthetic to be more attractive and easier to apply on a semi-regular basis, much the same logic as DS9's redesign of the Trill makeup for Terry Farrell, though not quite as drastic.

True, I did notice that, but, unlike the Trill example (or going from the TOS Klingons to the film designs back in the '70s), it actually looks like a de facto racial variation within the species, much like what real-life humans have.

Just because you don't have space travel yourself, that doesn't mean you can't participate in the galaxy, assuming you were initially contacted by a society without a Prime Directive. Bhavani says in "The Price" that her world's environment is inhospitable to most other life forms -- presumably meaning offworlders, as opposed to native animals and such. Yet she also says that their planet has been completely dependent on others for generations. The implication is that Barzan II has been part of the interstellar community and economy for generations, but as a client state of other worlds rather than an independent economy of its own. Maybe it's a former subject world or protectorate of an interstellar state and has since gained its independence, and is struggling to establish itself economically as a post-colonial power.

So even without their own spacefaring capability, the Barzans are clearly a people who were in contact with the interstellar community generations before TNG. So there's no inconsistency here.

Forgot about that point (I was only remembering the data point that the Barzans didn't have manned space travel themselves, which would not exclude them hiring other civilizations for travel or immigration purposes). Makes sense.

 

[Christopher]

True, I did notice that, but, unlike the Trill example (or going from the TOS Klingons to the film designs back in the '70s), it actually looks like a de facto racial variation within the species, much like what real-life humans have.

To me, the ridges look completely different. The TNG version is a relatively elaborate appliance with a big Y-shaped ridge going up to the hairline, another pair of bulges on the temples, and sharp, angular, comparatively small ridges on the browline. Nhan's design is almost the inverse of that, with a totally smooth forehead and pronounced brow ridges. If not for the "bridle"-like breathing apparatus, you'd never know they were meant to be the same species.

Nhan's design reminds me of some of the aliens Gordon Purcell designed for various Trek comics. Big orbital ridges were a common theme in his humanoid alien designs.

 

[WebLurker]

To me, the ridges look completely different. The TNG version is a relatively elaborate appliance with a big Y-shaped ridge going up to the hairline, another pair of bulges on the temples, and sharp, angular, comparatively small ridges on the browline. Nhan's design is almost the inverse of that, with a totally smooth forehead and pronounced brow ridges. If not for the "bridle"-like breathing apparatus, you'd never know they were meant to be the same species.

Nhan's design reminds me of some of the aliens Gordon Purcell designed for various Trek comics. Big orbital ridges were a common theme in his humanoid alien designs.

Well, thing is, the brows form a subdued version of the Y ridge. I will agree the brows themselves look different, but I can't say that I find it a deal breaker. Maybe without the apparatus I wouldn't have made the connection and maybe my opinions have been shaped by how drastic other makeup changes to other Trek species have been in the past. That said, comparing the two designs, I personally can by them as being different phenotypes. Fair enough if that doesn't work for you.

 

[Christopher]

Who said anything about it "working?" I'm just acknowledging that the difference exists. That is not a value judgment, merely an accurate description.

In fact, I personally think Nhan's makeup "works" just fine. She's actually pretty hot. But that has nothing to do with the objective fact of whether the two different Barzan makeups resemble each other or not.

 

[WebLurker]

Who said anything about it "working?" I'm just acknowledging that the difference exists. That is not a value judgment, merely an accurate description.

I meant "working" as in "you didn't find the new look to capture the original." No value judgement intended.

In fact, I personally think Nhan's makeup "works" just fine. She's actually pretty hot. But that has nothing to do with the objective fact of whether the two different Barzan makeups resemble each other or not.

I still think there's enough resemblance to buy them as different racial variations or something (like I said before, I see a subtle "V" forehead mark). But that's just me. You do you and all that.

 

[F. King Daniel]

After what they did to the Klingons you guys are debating the authenticity of the Barzan makeup?

Okay.

 

[SolarisOne]

After what they did to the Klingons you guys are debating the authenticity of the Barzan makeup?

Okay.

This is what some Trekkies do when they're bored, apparently.

 

[Christopher]

I still think there's enough resemblance to buy them as different racial variations or something (like I said before, I see a subtle "V" forehead mark).

In a vacuum, maybe. My thinking is, Michael Westmore gave us so many bumpy-forehead humanoids that just having forehead ridges of some sort isn't enough to narrow it down to one species. And it's interesting to me that Nhan's makeup is less evocative of Westmore than it is of Gordon Purcell.

But of course, the primary design feature that we associate with Barzans is the respiratory "bridle." So as long as that feature is there, we'll recognize the alien as a Barzan, and that leaves room for simplifying the forehead appliance to be more attractive and easier to apply to a semi-regular. It's similar to how different makeup artists have been free to concoct multiple variant Andorian designs as long as they keep the antennae, blue skin, and white hair, or various Tellarite designs as long as they look vaguely porcine; or, of course, multiple different Klingon designs as long as they keep the ridged foreheads and sharp teeth. It's about creating general impressions rather than duplicating precise details. I'm just talking about how the continuity in the general impression of "Barzan" -- mainly through the "bridle" appliance -- allows for flexibility in the precise details, and how those details can be adjusted to suit different character or production needs.

Although I think it's more about character needs in this case. DSC is perfectly content to concoct elaborate prosthetics for major guest characters like L'Rell or regular supporting characters like Airiam or that big-head alien in the background. So their reason for giving Nhan a more simplified appliance is presumably less about the ease of application and more about not hiding Rachael Ancheril's beauty (which was also a major factor in redesigning the Trill makeup for Terry Farrell).

After what they did to the Klingons you guys are debating the authenticity of the Barzan makeup?

Okay.

Again, analysis is not value judgment. There's nothing wrong with artists bringing their own creative variations to an imaginary concept such as an alien makeup design, but it is worth discussing the details of the variations they create, because that is part of how we appreciate art and understand the creative process.

 

[DEWLine]

*shrugs*

So long as Ancheril returns for Season 3...

Back to your originally scheduled topic.

 

[GaryH]

After what they did to the Klingons you guys are debating the authenticity of the Barzan makeup?

Okay.

Ha!

 

[Shon T'Hara]

But that's an alternate-timeline Carol who grew up in London.

A better example might be Sarek and Amanda, since the original versions had the sort of "Mid-Atlantic" accent that was commonly affected by actors of their generation, while the DSC versions have more ordinary American accents. (And Kelvin Sarek went the other way with a full-on English accent.)

One of the privileges of being captain is that you can tweak the Universal Translator's settings to adjust what accents it gives people. Kirk and Picard kept the default, but Lorca prefers cornpone accents, and Pike Englishy ones.

 

[Greg Cox]

After what they did to the Klingons you guys are debating the authenticity of the Barzan makeup?

Okay.

Well, I'll admit to being surprised by the Klingons in TMP, but I got over it.

Meanwhile, I'll confess that I don't remember what a "Barzan" is supposed to look like. Had no idea they were an established Trek race until people mentioned it here, but now that they've appeared on DISCO, I guess they're fair game for TOS novels from now on.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

The whole discussion of accents (and especially English accents) suddenly brought to mind this gem from Robin Hood: Men In Tights:

Prince John: And why should the people listen to you?
Robin Hood: Because, unlike some other Robin Hoods, I can speak with an English accent.

 

[WebLurker]

After what they did to the Klingons you guys are debating the authenticity of the Barzan makeup?

Okay.

Yup.

In a vacuum, maybe. My thinking is, Michael Westmore gave us so many bumpy-forehead humanoids that just having forehead ridges of some sort isn't enough to narrow it down to one species. And it's interesting to me that Nhan's makeup is less evocative of Westmore than it is of Gordon Purcell.

But of course, the primary design feature that we associate with Barzans is the respiratory "bridle." So as long as that feature is there, we'll recognize the alien as a Barzan, and that leaves room for simplifying the forehead appliance to be more attractive and easier to apply to a semi-regular. It's similar to how different makeup artists have been free to concoct multiple variant Andorian designs as long as they keep the antennae, blue skin, and white hair, or various Tellarite designs as long as they look vaguely porcine; or, of course, multiple different Klingon designs as long as they keep the ridged foreheads and sharp teeth. It's about creating general impressions rather than duplicating precise details. I'm just talking about how the continuity in the general impression of "Barzan" -- mainly through the "bridle" appliance -- allows for flexibility in the precise details, and how those details can be adjusted to suit different character or production needs.

Although I think it's more about character needs in this case. DSC is perfectly content to concoct elaborate prosthetics for major guest characters like L'Rell or regular supporting characters like Airiam or that big-head alien in the background. So their reason for giving Nhan a more simplified appliance is presumably less about the ease of application and more about not hiding Rachael Ancheril's beauty (which was also a major factor in redesigning the Trill makeup for Terry Farrell).

Fair enough.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Well, I'll admit to being surprised by the Klingons in TMP, but I got over it.

Meanwhile, I'll confess that I don't remember what a "Barzan" is supposed to look like. Had no idea they were an established Trek race until people mentioned it here, but now that they've appeared on DISCO, I guess they're fair game for TOS novels from now on.

Yeah. Would be really interesting to know what happened with them between TOS and TNG.

By the way the change between what the Trill were like in TNG and later in DS9 was way bigger, because it wasn't just the makeup but involved also cultural and biological alterations between the two versions of hosts and symbionts.