I'm gonna pretend DSC's Pike never said that.
Pike's "woman on the bridge" line
- Thread starter Methuselah Flint
- Start date
We can just say it wasn't Pike but a Talosian hallucination. They enslave aliens so they aren't nice people. It's also why Number 1 looks confused by his statement. Little do we the audience know but Pike is in his quarters sleeping, dreaming of Orion Slave Girls he owns.
Jason
Jason
2254 Pike was just less enlightened a person than 2257 Pike is. People change and evolve, and the experiences on Talos IV could have been a major turning point for him in terms of how he saw the universe. What was real and what was illusion? And is what we might see as good and acceptable not necessarily the case when viewed from a different perspective?
Going into retirement on an Orion colony planet full of green slave girls might have seemed harmless and even desirable to Pike after the trauma and regrets of the conflict on Rigel VII but three or more years later it could be an unpalatable and even offensive notion to him, having spent time himself inside a cage and not having any say over his own destiny while behind that transparent wall.
Going into retirement on an Orion colony planet full of green slave girls might have seemed harmless and even desirable to Pike after the trauma and regrets of the conflict on Rigel VII but three or more years later it could be an unpalatable and even offensive notion to him, having spent time himself inside a cage and not having any say over his own destiny while behind that transparent wall.
Yes, it's not like Kirk was walking through the corridors of the 1701 sweaty and shirtless in TOS S1 "The Corbomite Manuever"...oh, wait...
You can't use the occasional exception to disprove the rule.
I agree this was done to show how handsome and virile Kirk was.
However Kirk also did a lot of brave and intelligent things too.
Not many of the female crew were given a chance to show their leadership or intelligence. Sometimes they were but mostly not. Mostly they were there to show how brave the men were and to look good too.
I suppose that Vina says the fantasy was something Pike forbid himself to indulge in. It was I imagine the writer's fantasy or what they imagined most men's fantasy to have a bunch of sexy slave girls to fulfill every sexual fantasy without having to get married or committed to one partner. Its difficult to think that Pike (the hero) would really think it was OK in any way to be involved in the slave trade. I'm thinking it was just a momentary fantasy engineered by VIna to sexually tempt him and that Pike would have eventually rejected the whole idea.
That's... not what's going on.
Back before the Enterprise received the fake follow-up message about there being survivors from the spaceship crash, Pike and the doctor talked about Pike's fantasies in Pike's quarters. Going into the Orion slave trade was one of the fantasies that the war-weary captain divulged, along with riding out on his horse for a picnic lunch every day. Pike probably wasn't serious, by his subsequent reaction to the what the doctor says to it, and also because, later on in the cage, Vina—evidently informed by the Talosians of what they've read from his mind—works it out that it is time to tempt Pike with a fantasy that we already know is one of his own but which he's decided (for whatever reason) is inaccessible to him, in reality.
It's about tempting him with whatever fantasies he might have deep down, no matter how extreme.
I suppose I'm giving Pike the benefit of the doubt here.
Pike said he could get work on an Orion colony. Maybe they do other things than just be slavers? You know like stealing dilithium.
It was Boyce that became alarmed that Pike might be interested in being a slave trader.. Perhaps that wasn't Pike's intention initially and thats why he dismissed Boyce's objections. Or perhaps he did consider it. Perhaps when you mention working in the orion colony it means becoming a pimp
The dialog was [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/16.htm]:
BOYCE: To the point of finally taking my advice, a rest leave?
PIKE: To the point of considering resigning.
BOYCE: And do what?
PIKE: Well, for one thing, go home. Nice little town with fifty miles of park land around it. Remember I told you I had two horses, and we used to take some food and ride out all day.
BOYCE: Ah, that sounds exciting. Ride out with a picnic lunch every day.
PIKE: I said that's one place I might go. I might go into business on Regulus or on the Orion colony.
BOYCE: You, an Orion trader, dealing in green animal women, slaves?
PIKE: The point is this isn't the only life available. There's a whole galaxy of things to choose from.
PIKE: To the point of considering resigning.
BOYCE: And do what?
PIKE: Well, for one thing, go home. Nice little town with fifty miles of park land around it. Remember I told you I had two horses, and we used to take some food and ride out all day.
BOYCE: Ah, that sounds exciting. Ride out with a picnic lunch every day.
PIKE: I said that's one place I might go. I might go into business on Regulus or on the Orion colony.
BOYCE: You, an Orion trader, dealing in green animal women, slaves?
PIKE: The point is this isn't the only life available. There's a whole galaxy of things to choose from.
That's a full-blown admission that Pike is talking about maybe becoming an Orion slave trader. Boyce said it, Pike confirmed that that was what he was talking about.
Again, there were many times Kirk went ripped shirt/shirtless, especially in Season 1. And remember, the women WERE originally going to all where pants. it was BOT Nichelle Nichols and Grace Lee Whitney who suggested/wanted the miniskirt uniforms.
No. It's Boyce that make the leap to slave trader. Pike just talks about going into business on Regulus or Orion. He makes no mention of what type of business. There's is probably a stereotype of Orion traders that Boyce is playing into.
Considering we haven't seen the Pike of 2257, I'm not sure what he would be like.
True the illusion was precisely based on what Pike was not allowed to do/be:
VINA [on monitor]: I'm beginning to see why none of this has worked for you. You've been home, and fighting as on Rigel. That's not new to you, either. A person's strongest dreams are about what he can't do. Yes, a ship's captain, always having to be so formal, so decent and honest and proper. You must wonder what it would be like to forget all that.
The very premise is showing Pike a world where he doesn't have to be formal, decent, honest, and proper. I think this reasoning works very well. We all have restrictions either self imposed or imposed by society. Imagining what life would be like free from those restrictions would be powerful motivator. For example, how many people here have had that one coworker or customer where they had wished there was no societal prohibition against killing.
The point of the illusion isn't to show that Pike daydreams about human trafficking. It's to show the allure of the forbidden. But even surrounded by this forbidden fantasy Pike gets up and WALKS OUT.
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lulz. Boyce spelled it out to the audience what that business was. The fact that Pike won't say it all out loud himself, and the fact that it takes someone literally reading his mind to expose what tempts him, that tells us something about his character. There's some depth there, arguably greater depth than Kirk typically exhibited: Pike is someone who knows the difference between right and wrong, but he's also worn down, and he's suffering from PTSD to a degree that he's starting to discuss going off the reservation.
Showing the characters being sexy I don't think is the issue. I mean we are talking about tv here. They are always wanting the characters to do sexy type of stuff. I think the issue is the women don't often get to do much of anything else. Uhura gets to do more than most but for the most part all the main female guest stars are just their to be a romantic interest to Kirk,sometimes Spock ,two times Dr McCoy and a few times with Scotty and Chekov.
It's kind of telling that Sulu didn't get to do that except when he is evil in the mirror universe. Granted he did tell ole Johnny Boy he was gay so maybe that is the reason.
Either way I still think the show was progressive for the time and it's kind of unfair to hold it to the standards of today, beyond simply just noticing that ,hey things were different back then to kind of compare for curiosities sake. You can't change the past so you just have to take it for what it was, at that point in time.Jason
Short Post:
There are a lot of different places called "Orion" and peoples called "Orions" in various Star Trek productions. And it is uncertain which, if any, of them might be identical with those in other mentions. So possibly Dr. Boyce was jumping to conclusions when interpreting going into business "on Regulus or the Orion colony" as being the same thing as becoming an Orion slave trader.
Long Post:
There have been several posts discussing this dialog:
And I wrote a long discussion about the various places called "Orion" and the various peoples called "Orions" in Star Trek. And it looks like it all disappeared and wasn't saved.
I don't feel up to recreating that discussion. But there are enough references to "Orion" and "Orions", and little enough evidence that all of them refer to the same place, species, or society, that it is quite possible that Dr. Boyce jumped to conclusions when accusing Pike of considering becoming an Orion slave trader.
And even if Dr. Boyce was correct that the only business of the hypothetical Orion traders in the Orion colony was slave trading, obviously there had to be other businesses in the Orion colony. Even if the Orion slave traders there made so much money that they could afford to import everything they and the entire colony needed and wanted, someone had to be in the business of importing everything that they and the entire colony needed and wanted.
And what about all the work that needed to be done to keep the Orion colony working? If any of that work was done by free workers, and if the Orion slave traders never bothered to do any of that type of work, someone would have to contract to do those jobs and hire foreign guest workers to do them, just as in oil rich Arab societies.
So I tend to agree with those who say that Dr. Boyce was choosing the worst possible interpretation of going into business "on Regulus or the Orion colony" in order to convince Pike that he had the best possible job for a man of his talents.
There are a lot of different places called "Orion" and peoples called "Orions" in various Star Trek productions. And it is uncertain which, if any, of them might be identical with those in other mentions. So possibly Dr. Boyce was jumping to conclusions when interpreting going into business "on Regulus or the Orion colony" as being the same thing as becoming an Orion slave trader.
Long Post:
There have been several posts discussing this dialog:
And I wrote a long discussion about the various places called "Orion" and the various peoples called "Orions" in Star Trek. And it looks like it all disappeared and wasn't saved.
I don't feel up to recreating that discussion. But there are enough references to "Orion" and "Orions", and little enough evidence that all of them refer to the same place, species, or society, that it is quite possible that Dr. Boyce jumped to conclusions when accusing Pike of considering becoming an Orion slave trader.
And even if Dr. Boyce was correct that the only business of the hypothetical Orion traders in the Orion colony was slave trading, obviously there had to be other businesses in the Orion colony. Even if the Orion slave traders there made so much money that they could afford to import everything they and the entire colony needed and wanted, someone had to be in the business of importing everything that they and the entire colony needed and wanted.
And what about all the work that needed to be done to keep the Orion colony working? If any of that work was done by free workers, and if the Orion slave traders never bothered to do any of that type of work, someone would have to contract to do those jobs and hire foreign guest workers to do them, just as in oil rich Arab societies.
So I tend to agree with those who say that Dr. Boyce was choosing the worst possible interpretation of going into business "on Regulus or the Orion colony" in order to convince Pike that he had the best possible job for a man of his talents.
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I think the female empowerment of the mini skirts was a noble ideal but it led to greater objectification of the women. I do believe the skirts contributed to the show's popularity though. I agree the real issue was not the skirts but rather what the crewmen in skirts were allowed to do to move the plot along.Showing the characters being sexy I don't think is the issue. I mean we are talking about tv here. They are always wanting the characters to do sexy type of stuff. I think the issue is the women don't often get to do much of anything else. Uhura gets to do more than most but for the most part all the main female guest stars are just their to be a romantic interest to Kirk,sometimes Spock ,two times Dr McCoy and a few times with Scotty and Chekov.
It's kind of telling that Sulu didn't get to do that except when he is evil in the mirror universe. Granted he did tell ole Johnny Boy he was gay so maybe that is the reason.
Jason
If it wasn't skirts it would just be skin tight jeans or navel showing tank tops etc. To me clothes don't mean that much since styles come and go all the time. Especially in a case for shows aimed at younger teenage/college audiences. Different if you got a serious adult drama and your character looks like a working girl which would be very unproffesional and not realistic.
To me it always comes down to character. How interesting is a character and how much depth are you giving him or her. Even in shows were you can have a little more sexiness in style you still need some substance to give it some meaning.
Heck I don't even mind the low substance stuff that much but it's easier to feel that way today when you have so many options. Back then you had basically 3 channels so every show and character counted. It doesn't matter much now though if you have some "Baywatch" show on because you got so many more well written and serious options as well. Basically their is no reason anyone why someone shouldn't be able to enjoy whatever kind of show they like because of all the options. Some from different countries as well with the expanding the pool of stuff to watch.
Jason
That's not how I interpret that line at all.
Pike brings up Orion, Boyce ridicules the idea, and Pike essentially says "you know that's not what I meant." Imagine a modern discussion going like this:
PIKE: I said that's one place I might go. I might go into business in New York or Las Vegas.
BOYCE: You, in Vegas? Running a strip club or a bordello?
PIKE: The point is that this isn't the only life available. There's a whole world of things to choose from.
BOYCE: You, in Vegas? Running a strip club or a bordello?
PIKE: The point is that this isn't the only life available. There's a whole world of things to choose from.
or:
PIKE: I said that's one place I might go. I might move to Brazil, or Colombia.
BOYCE: You, in Colombia? Becoming a cocaine farmer?
PIKE: The point is that this isn't the only life available. There's a whole world of things to choose from.
BOYCE: You, in Colombia? Becoming a cocaine farmer?
PIKE: The point is that this isn't the only life available. There's a whole world of things to choose from.
The 60's fashions seem to be part of this. Liberation from the stiff fashions of the 50's. Skin was in and mini skirts were worn with deliberate defiance and beyond that, they were a norm. I'm not so sure women and actresses of the time were not part of the equation as to how their character was going to present.
As for Kirk, he was very sexualised! That tight little mustard pullover, the lingering glances and twinkle in his eye. Those Don Juan kisses he was forced to perform in umpteen episodes.
So, you're saying Boyce was an idiot? Sure.
I'd say that he was playing devil's advocate in order to get Pike to consider his options seriously and not make any rash decisions
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