Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x14 - "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2"

[Cake]

Its highly likely that Control isnt quite as finished as we were led to believe, disabled yes, dormant yes but not dead and its still in the spore room as Discovery goes to the future.

Essentially the present is now safe but the future is still up for grabs, that is probably why we were not shown Burnham or Discovery at their destination.

According to Kurtzman Control is really dead. So what they said in the episode about Control being destroyed was a fact.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/l...y-season-2-finale-time-jump-explained-1203166

Speaking of Section 31, Control seems to be neutralized in the finale, but Discovery is technically taking it into the future with them. Is there a chance it could resurrect in season three?

All I can tell you is that Control is officially neutralized, but there will be much bigger problems when they get to the other side of that wormhole.

It is ridiculous how easy it was to destroy Control in the end. It shouldn't have just been in Leland. The program should have been in all Section 31 ships and should have been so smart to put itself into countless other places. As smart as it obviously was already, it should have already infiltrated the whole Federation network and numerous alien networks. Even current non intelligent computer viruses are seemingly better with distributing themsevles across the internet.

 

[oberth]

Incidentally, one of my favorite films of all time.

never heard of it - will have a look and report back to you

 

[oberth]

Maybe. But consider that those unplanned jumps were all within a year or so of each other. Perhaps breaking the time continuum by a millennium requires exponentially more power than the local jumps.

my reasoning as well and nothing that needed further explanation in my book

 

[Starflight]

Her logic doesn't make a lick of sense to me. If she's worried about future events, why would a captain have more potential influence than an admiral? She almost genocided the Klingons, after all. How many people would have died had she not been there to abruptly abandon her ill-considered plan?

Part of her logic seemed to be that Pike had to live because... well, because he just did live, according to The Menagerie. I suppose the implication is that she messed around with time crystals herself because she knew what was going to happen to Pike, and so she must have seen her own "destiny" as being the one to save the ship from the torpedo.

I've been wondering about this since the time crystal episode. The Klingon timekeepers tell Pike that if he looks into the crystal, the vision he sees will necessarily come true. I still don't get it, honestly - I asked about it on here before and people said that it was a reflection on Pike's character and his desire to do good that he would always end up in that wheelchair, but I don't understand why he's literally locked into that no matter what he does, according to the timekeeper.

What would happen if he had stayed in the torpedo room instead of Cornwell? The timekeeper ends up looking like a real dork as his dramatic prediction gets ruined by Pike getting vaporised? Or is he literally invincible because the time crystal says so? Maybe that's how his turbolift survived the blast.

 

[Alan Roi]

According to Kurtzman Control is really dead. So what they said in the episode about Control being destroyed was a fact.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/l...y-season-2-finale-time-jump-explained-1203166



It is ridiculous how easy it was to destroy Control in the end. It shouldn't have just been in Leland. The program should have been in all Section 31 ships and should have been so smart to put itself into countless other places. As smart as it obviously was already, it should have already infiltrated the whole Federation network and numerous alien networks already. Even current non intelligent computer viruses are seemingly better with distributing themsevles across the internet.

Imagine trying to stuff Windows 10 into a Commodore 64 (and that's just 30 years difference in advancement not 500 years). I'm thinking Future Control lost some functionality when it came back to take over 23rd century Control. Or at least that's how I see it.

 

[oberth]

According to Kurtzman Control is really dead.

that's easily solved. they just need to fire him - they do that all the time

 

[Michael]

I will defend that part - the point of that scene is that his fate isn't set in stone because of mystical properties of the time crystal, but as many here already speculated, because of the man he is. He knew it was stupid to sacrifice himself rather than command his ship, and Cornwell reminded him of that in her own way. Yes he has seen a different ending for himself, but that doesn't make him invincible, it just predicts his choices. Correctly, as it turns out. I quite liked that scene.

Hm, somehow that‘s not how the scene plays for me. I would not have expected him to sacrifice himself. But the knowledge that he wouldn‘t die there and then, because he had already seen his fate, should have given him the certainty that he somehow would not perish and survive this, no? His fate is set in stone, is it not? We know it is and he has no reason to believe otherwise.

I dunno, maybe I need to rewatch the Boreth episode. Certainly seems like I missed a couple of things.

 

[Alan Roi]

Hm, somehow that‘s not how the scene plays for me. I would not have expected him to sacrifice himself. But the knowledge that he wouldn‘t die there and then, because he had already seen his fate, should have given him the certainty that he somehow would not perish and survive this, no? His fate is set in stone, is it not? We know it is and he has no reason to believe otherwise.

Cornwell did posit an argument for that idea. And, honestly, his instinct for self-sacrifice seems pretty hardwired into him. Will be interesting to see how that evolves if they eventually go ahead with a Pike series.

 

[Jadeb]

Hm, somehow that‘s not how the scene plays for me. I would not have expected him to sacrifice himself. But the knowledge that he wouldn‘t die there and then, because he had already seen his fate, should have given him the certainty that he somehow would not perish and survive this, no? His fate is set in stone, is it not? We know it is and he has no reason to believe otherwise.

I dunno, maybe I need to rewatch the Boreth episode. Certainly seems like I missed a couple of things.

I thought they were trying to establish that he doesn't have plot armor, or at least is uncertain about it, which I appreciated. But none of it makes sense, really. He could put a phaser to his head tomorrow and he clearly wouldn't end up in the chair.

 

[Michael]

Cornwell did posit an argument for that idea. And, honestly, his instinct for self-sacrifice seems pretty hardwired into him. Will be interesting to see how that evolves if they eventually go ahead with a Pike series.

Again, I have no idea how ”sacrifice“ figures into Pike‘s thoughts at that moment. Because he knew he wouldn‘t die and there wouldn‘t be a sacrifice. So what does ”instinct for self-sacrifice“ even mean in that context?

 

[Starflight]

The idea that the time crystals can predict a person's actions with an extremely high degree of accuracy is an awesome one, but Pike and Cornwell seem to go along with it a little too easily. Time crystal said I'm going to blow myself up here, so let's rock. Time crystal says my face is going to get melted off, alright.

It would have been interesting to see Cornwell attempt to defy the actions the time crystal prescribed for her, whether successfully or otherwise.

 

[Jadeb]

Again, I have no idea how ”sacrifice“ figures into Pike‘s thoughts at that moment. Because he knew he wouldn‘t die and there wouldn‘t be a sacrifice. So what does ”instinct for self-sacrifice“ even mean in that context?

"I shouldn't sacrifice myself now, when it's clearly needed, in case I need to sacrifice myself later," I guess.

 

[Michael]

Have I watched a different show? Now Cornwell has had a time crystal vision as well?

 

[Alan Roi]

Again, I have no idea how ”sacrifice“ figures into Pike‘s thoughts at that moment. Because he knew he wouldn‘t die and there wouldn‘t be a sacrifice. So what does ”instinct for self-sacrifice“ even mean in that context?

The same instinct that had him tell Burnham not to risk trying to catch him from crashing into an asteroid, the same instinct that had him jumping on a phaser about to go off, the same instinct that had him demand to pilot the shuttle into the temporal swirl, the same instinct that compelled him to accept the time crystal and the same instinct had him complain to Cornwell about being left out of the war every time he could bring it up. That instinct. its not about his thoughts, its about who he is as a person on the most fundamental of levels.

 

[Alan Roi]

Have I watched a different show? Now Cornwell has had a time crystal vision as well?

Or she's read his report of his mission to Boreth.

 

[cultcross]

As often with Discovery, I liked what they were trying to do but thought they botched it terribly. If he's really that type of man, why does he leave Cornwell to die? And why is it more important that he live than her, other than the fact canon needs him to? That plays into an unfortunate sexist trope, doesn't it?

Her logic doesn't make a lick of sense to me. If she's worried about future events, why would a captain have more potential influence than an admiral? She almost genocided the Klingons, after all. How many people would have died had she not been there to abruptly abandon her ill-considered plan?

Of course, this is on a ship where everybody is eager to leave behind everyone and everything they know and love, even though there's absolutely no need to.

The logic of the Captain of the ship surviving in the middle of a battle over an Admiral who isn't immediately useful makes some sense to me. I don't think that is sexist. It's the same reasoning Kirk went to the Enterprise B deflector dish in Harriman's place. The Captain should be on the bridge.

 

[Starflight]

Have I watched a different show? Now Cornwell has had a time crystal vision as well?

Not on screen, but the way she looks at the blast door lever with the dramatic close-up on it (looked like a look of realisation to me), the way she seems certain that she's got to die there and Pike absolutely cannot die there, and the way she talks about Pike's future made me think she knew a lot more than she ought to without a vision of her own.

 

[Jadeb]

The logic of the Captain of the ship surviving in the middle of a battle over an Admiral who isn't immediately useful makes some sense to me. I don't think that is sexist. It's the same reasoning Kirk went to the Enterprise B deflector dish in Harriman's place. The Captain should be on the bridge.

Neither the captain nor an admiral (who is a psychiatrist, mind) should be dealing with the torpedo situation in the first place, in my book.

 

[Starflight]

Neither the captain nor an admiral (who is a psychiatrist, mind) should be dealing with the torpedo situation in the first place, in my book.

That crossed my mind as well - on a ship of 400 people, the three (cause Number One was there too) highest-ranking people race off the bridge to press their faces into the live torpedo.

But you know that Kirk and Spock would have been rushing to do the exact same thing. Only Sisko seems to really understand how delegation works.

 

[Alan Roi]

Neither the captain nor an admiral (who is a psychiatrist, mind) should be dealing with the torpedo situation in the first place, in my book.

No, but Captains and Admirals in Star Trek have always tended to do whatever the fuck they want to, regardless of whether it is a good idea especially if they have major personal issues driving them on.