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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x13 - "Such Sweet Sorrow"

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Now what what?
Sorry typo. I meant, it's not what (as in not what is being done) but how (it is being done)

I think what’s being said is that we need more pets in this show.
True that! Seriously, they couldn't find a way to get a cat on board? And that cat would end up being some kind of alien? Wait a second... feels like that has been already done. And recently too ;)
 
Sorry typo. I meant, it's not what (as in not what is being done) but how (it is being done)


True that! Seriously, they couldst find a way to get a cat on board? And that cat would end up being some kind of alien? Wait a second... feels like it has been already done and recently too ;)
That would be Marvelous indeed. Or alternatively if there was a raccoon who’d undergone genetic manipulation and was actually part of the crew. And loved big phasers.
 
Too many characters acting like drama kings and queen...

Is not what happened. I didn't like the pacing of the episode or that 13 became 13 and 14 to accomodate all of this and would have preferred it spread over the season.

But people about to die writing letters to loved ones, well I'd just love to see you call every soldier who does this a "drama queen" to their face, and see how long you still have one.
 
But people about to die writing letters to loved ones, well I'd just love to see you call every soldier who does this a "drama queen" to their face, and see how long you still have one.

Sheesh, they are not about to die. They are going to the future. Yeah, as far as they know, the'll be separated from their families forever, but it's hardly a suicide mission. Let's not compare this to actual real life soldiers, shall we?
 
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Now he's not just a person who commits an heroic act, but he's someone who makes the choice to do so, knowing the sacrifice and its personal cost... and in doing so is committing yet another heroic act. And, by attributing these values to his Starfleet training, he confers that same heroism to the entire organization -- an important point when facing a foe like Section 31 that claims to uphold the same organization with none of those values. It's a deeply powerful scene for the show and for the character.
Completely agree. I was reviewing the scene and the character implications and was struck by just how much Pike's sense of duty is presented as ingrained in his character now.
If you were working with people like these you'd be telling them to "JUST SHUT UP ALREADY AND DO THE FREAKING JOB!"
I work with highly emotional people on a daily basis. Not once is "shut up and do your job!" ever appropriate.
Sheesh, they are not about to die. They are going to the future. Yeah, as far as they know, the'll be separated with their families forever, but it's hardly a suicide mission. Let's not compare this to actual real life soldiers, shall we?
Even though the analogy is apropos?

Obviously, comparing a Hollywood production to real life soldiers is never going to go well, but if we are supposed to identify with and emotional connect with this characters this comparison seems appropriate, at least from the character point of view.
 
There is a silliness to this statement. That if you criticize their decisions you somehow against the show. I'm sorry, I've been criticizing Star Trek going all the way back to Jim Kirk's lax security on the original 1701.

To me, the good-byes were largely unearned, the only thing they added to the episode was filling out the runtime.
Yeah this is what happens when a person viewpoint only allows for black and white.

I must admit the goodbyes did seem a little stretched but that is easily explained by the split into two episodes, plus Pike leaving without a clear chain of command is off as well.

My take on it is that it won't matter next week because nothing will go to plan anyway.
 
Last post on this before I sign off on this debate and wait for the second half of "Such Sweet Sorrow". Potentially we can keep going, but soon I have to look at and edit footage I shot over the weekend (for those who don't know, I'm a Videographer). And Thursday can turn out to prove me wrong on a lot of what I said. So arguing my position and getting it all out is one thing. But fighting tooth and nail for it right up until the minute of the Season Finale drops will be something else. It would make the potential egg on my face look a lot worse.



We all know Harberts/Berg, Kurtzman, and now Paradise have inherited Fuller's creation. So they had to decide what to do with it. Kurtzman seems like an interim showrunner. He wants to be the "Rick Berman" handling the Bigger Picture, not the "Michael Piller" handling the day-to-day. So, post-Fuller, we really have Harbert/Berg's vision of what they wanted to do and Michelle Paradise's vision of what she wants to do.

I don't know if Bryan Fuller wanted to include the Mirror Universe or if that's something Harberts/Berg added, or how far along they got in planning out the season before Fuller left, but if the Mycellial Network took them from the Mirror Universe to Nine Months Later, I think they wanted to show the range of what the Spore Drive can do by giving us examples of something we know. It can take us not only through Space, but also through Time (nine months later) and through Different Universes (The Mirror Universe). Time might've been Bryan Fuller's idea for how Discovery would've gotten to the TNG Era. Different Universes an "out" if, in the future, what he did with the Prime Timeline turned out to be unpopular and he could say the crew only thought they were in the Prime Timeline or come up with some roundabout PR bullshit excuse like "They end up in the Prime Timeline!" as a fail-safe.

If, emphasis on if, Fuller's intention was to spend one season in each of the timeframes, then Harberts & Berg probably felt that it wasn't enough to just go from the Klingon War to the Mirror Universe to "TNG" (quotations because I'm using it as a shorthand for TNG/DS9/VOY/Post-NEM/Picard). Also, one the Picard Series became a thing, presumably they didn't want DSC to go there because the Picard Series might have its own ideas about what they wanted to do with that timeframe that wouldn't have meshed with DSC's ideas. So they probably opted to skip out on going to "TNG".

I don't know at what point the Picard Series was thought up as a concept, but at the end of developing the story for the first season, Harberts & Berg had a choice of going to another time frame at the end of the Mirror Universe Arc or stay in the same timeframe. They probably decided there was more story to tell in the 23rd Century and decided to only jump nine months. Basically the same time period but just enough of a difference in the Klingon War that the crew would be wondering "What the Hell happened?" when they got back. And then there was the finish, which was a rush.

So that brings us to Season 2. By now they've heard the complaints about Spock having a sister, Discovery having its Spore Drive, and why Kirk never mentioned or was involved in a Klingon War. I'll address each of these one-by-one but not in the order I mentioned:

First: Pike says the Enterprise was on a five-year mission far away and that's why he was never involved in The War. If the Enterprise can be "too far way", then so can the Farragut. One issue addressed. Whether or not it's to everyone's satisfaction is another story.

Second: Complaints about Spock having a sister. They came up with the Red Angel concept. Now they have time travel in play. Mysticism in play. And they can use "timey-wimey" to explain away Burnham and why she's never mentioned. I don't think why she's never mentioned had to be addressed but they felt it needed to be addressed, so I'm defending their position and not what I personally think. What I personally think is: he never mentioned her because it never came up.

Third: Time travel can conveniently be used to explain away why the Spore Drive isn't used on ships after Discovery. On top of what Culber's precence in the Mycellial Network was doing to it. They used the echo of Culber in the Mycellial Network as a way to get them out of another criticism: that Discovery had fallen into The "Kill Your Gays" Trope. So, as far as Harberts & Berg wrote, the Spore Drive probably would've been dangerous to Mycellial Life and would've been lost. This is where it gets hairy. It's hard to say if the Spore Drive would've been responsible for time travel or the Red Angel in their version of the full DSC S2, but I'm leaning towards the Red Angel. Either way, the Spore Drive being lost from this time period is a way to get it out of the 23rd Century.

Then we get to Alex Kurtzman taking over before Michelle Paradise steps in. I think, and a lot of us think, he discarded or changed Berg & Harberts original plan for the second season. I think he's the one who came up with Control. Control would serve two purposes. First is to serve as the reason he'd want for why Discovery can't return to the 23rd Century once it leaves there, so this is his answer and his take to the previous showrunners' ideas and putting his own stamp on it. The second purpose is to have it interface with Airiam. He might've -- emphasis on might've -- decided to use Airiam's undeleted memories as the basis for the what leads to the creation of Zora. If he was looking for a direction for the series to go, in the wake of firing Berg & Harberts being fired, he probably looked to "Calypso" for inspiration and his new guide. And you can't have Zora unless it's in a timeframe much later than the 23rd Century. And Control is the reason to keep them out of there.

Long story short: I don't necessarily think Kurtzman or Harberts & Berg intended to stick to Bryan Fuller's outline, so much as they just partially found their way back to it.

And IF Discovery leaves the 23rd Century, then they have the Section 31 Series, the Academy Series, and a Pike Series (if they make one and assuming it's not also the Academy Series) to continue what they developed there, along with whatever else they might come up with in the future. The groundwork for the CBSAA's 23rd Century has already been laid down. Michelle Paradise would get the honor of developing the groundwork for a whole other timeframe that takes place in a foreign time after everything else we've seen. Something that hasn't been done in Star Trek since 1987.

Done. The rest will have to wait until after Thursday, or someone else can pick up my end of the slack.

1) Fuller's anthology (and moving to different eras with whole new casts) idea was 100% shot down by CBS. They just weren't going to do it (too expensive costume/set wise as it's essentially a new show (set design wise) each season.

2) I think the MU in Season one was 100% Fuller's idea. It's just the type of 'unexpected thing he likes to do (IE The whole 'Lorca is actually from the MU, but has command of a PU starship.')

3) No, I don't think Herberts and Berg could have sent the Discovery to another era when coming back from the MU as they had to end the war arc in the 23rd century and a "Oh yeah, the Federation survived..." comment after such a jump would have been even more unsatisfying then the ending we got for Season one. They spent quite some time in the MU, so they wanted to be sure time passed in the PU too rather than have them show up an instant after they left.

4) There were 5 scripts written Herberts and Berg were removed; so while there may have been some minor tweaking here and there (and I'm talking stuff like "Do we Greenscreen the interior of the 1701 or not?..."); if you've written 5 scripts AND DON'T have the major plot beats of the entire season while doing it, you're going to end up with a real mess (and while people may not like aspects of the sorry execution the overall plot and it's progression. The 1 episode extension (13 to 14) was reported very early in production by CBS, so yeah, I think the big beats and overall plot (with Time Travel and a Rogue A.I.was laid out and agreed on long before Herbert and Berg were fired.

And personally for Season 3 - yeah, while they will spend some time 500+ years in the future, I think at some point in the story they'll find their way back to the 23rd century, even if they don't get a 4th season. Yes, they want to conform to the big beats of TOS canon (IE Kirk and Spock had their adventures on TV and later in film...); but no, I don't think they're going to cop out with a "Discovery went into the future and the TOS timeline suddenly snapped back 100% in visual style and substance - IE somehow no one in the Federation remembers the Spock's siter/the Discovery/Spore Drive, et. al.) But in the end we'll see as if they do do that type of cop out, and now set Discovery in some future era going forward, they'll have lost me as a viewer because I don't find the 'Utopian/TNG' era interesting at all - and I can only imagine how much more sanctimonious the Federation and Starfleet become in te 25th century and beyond.

(IE No, honestly 'The Picard show' holds no real interest for me as the Picard character from about TNG Season 3 on was often a sanctimonious/self righteous/hypocritical windbag who said a lot, but usually only really practiced what he preached when it suited him. There's plenty of episodes where he claims "The Federation makes no judgement about and respects the beliefs/traditions/diversity of the various societies...yet then comes down HARD on Worf because Worf FOLLOWS and executes some core belief/tradition of Klingon society.

TOS rarely even did something like the above and there is many an episode where Kirk/Spock et. al. DISAGREE with aspects of a society, and try to get the okay from Starfleet Command to do something only to be told - "Hey, it's their world; officially we have to go with their decision/local laws/customs; (and yes, Kirk and Spock still do something, but at least 'The Federation' itself is sticking to the "Hey, we make no judgments about your society/customs. Your planet is yours...") <--- The situation depicted in TOS - S3 "The Cloud Minders" is a good example of this.
 
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And I thought I didn’t like Picard. :lol: Here’s hoping Disco winds up nowhere near him, because I’m out if they do.
 
I think at some point in the story they'll find their way back to the 23rd century, even if they don't get a 4th season. Yes, they want to conform to the big beats of TOS canon (IE Kirk and Spock had their adventures on TV and later in film...); but no, I don't think they're going to cop out with a "Discovery went into the future and the TOS timeline suddenly snapped back 100% in visual style and substance - IE somehow no one in the Federation remembers the Spock's sister/the Discovery/Spore Drive, et. al.)

I agree. This doesn't really seem like their MO. Why put all that work into the design, especially of the Enterprise bridge, only to do a "Bobby Ewing in the shower" just to appease a subset of fans? If they were really of the "the tech's too advanced for the 23rd century" or "but Spock never mentioned a sister" mindset, why make the changes at all? I think when they say they are making the show "fit," they are speaking in terms of much broader strokes.
 
2) I think the MU in Season one was 100% Fuller's idea. It's just the type of 'unexpected thing he likes to do (IE The whole 'Lorca is actually from the MU, but has command of a PU starship.')

Fuller intended for Discovery to travel to the MU even earlier in the season than they did. However, Lorca being from the MU was a Berg/Harberts idea. They wondered why he had such a militaristic mien compared to the average Starfleet captain, and came to that as being a "good" explanation.
 
Fuller intended for Discovery to travel to the MU even earlier in the season than they did. However, Lorca being from the MU was a Berg/Harberts idea. They wondered why he had such a militaristic mien compared to the average Starfleet captain, and came to that as being a "good" explanation.

Are you sure of that? I just remember Jason Isaacs saying in an interview that he was told "you're playing a character with a secret" and not knowing what.

I'm not doubting...I just never read that directly.

And, if that's true...that was a bit of a misstep.
 
I agree. This doesn't really seem like their MO. Why put all that work into the design, especially of the Enterprise bridge, only to do a "Bobby Ewing in the shower" just to appease a subset of fans? If they were really of the "the tech's too advanced for the 23rd century" or "but Spock never mentioned a sister" mindset, why make the changes at all? I think when they say they are making the show "fit," they are speaking in terms of much broader strokes.
The most likely scenario looks like the following:

Discover jumps to another time that isolates them from the rest of Starfleet for good. There is no timeline reset. But, Starfleet does not have a Spore drive and considers it to be a failure. And, Spock does not have a sister. That's how Discovery leaves the 23rd century matching established canon. There's NO timeline reset.

Meanwhile, back in the 23rd century, we'll be able to watch the shiny new Enterprise bridge on the Pike and Spock show.
 
Are you sure of that? I just remember Jason Isaacs saying in an interview that he was told "you're playing a character with a secret" and not knowing what.

I'm not doubting...I just never read that directly.

And, if that's true...that was a bit of a misstep.

I read about this about a year ago on the forum...from Buzzfeed:

Harberts explained that the writers knew from the start, when creator Bryan Fuller was first planning out the show's serialized storyline, that the inaugural season of Discoverywould end up in the Mirror Universe. (Fuller eventually left the show due to creative differences with CBS, elevating Harberts and Gretchen J. Berg to showrunner status.) But at first, the writers planned for Lorca to be a hawkish captain given a chance to shine thanks to the Federation's war with the Klingon Empire. It was only after the writers began discussing why Lorca would be so skilled with warfare that they hit upon the idea that he'd secretly be from the militaristic world of the Mirror Universe.
 
I work with highly emotional people on a daily basis. Not once is "shut up and do your job!" ever appropriate.

First, in what sense do you mean "work with?" Are you talking co-workers or clients you may counsel or something else?

If it's a co-worker situation where there are many high strung individuals, well, that's not a healthy sign and if they cannot control their emotions long enough to complete tasks in a professional manner then is equally not good.
 
Well, that's really too bad. They screwed that up big time.

Agreed. It's always better if unique character traits are due to some interesting backstory which is slowly teased out rather than just "It's in his nature."

I mean, imagine in Garak on DS9's personality was just explained away as being because "Cardassians are inherently distrustful." So many stories wouldn't have been told.
 
First, in what sense do you mean "work with?" Are you talking co-workers or clients you may counsel or something else?

If it's a co-worker situation where there are many high strung individuals, well, that's not a healthy sign and if they cannot control their emotions long enough to complete tasks in a professional manner then is equally not good.
Co workers. And telling them to "just get the job done" still is not successful.
 
Wow forgive me if mentioned before but I just noticed a pretty massive blooper in this ep.. at 10 mins, we see Burnham and an officier behind her is walking BACKWARDS...! They probably rewound the shot to make it look better but cannot believe they didn’t notice this!
 
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