Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x13 - "Such Sweet Sorrow"

[Mr Awe]

I do wonder how folks are going to react if Kurtzman and company press a massive reset button after going on for two years that the show was "Prime"?

We'll cross that bridge if we get to that point. I don't expect there will be a timeline reset or anything like that. I don't like the idea of doing that. I'd give the show a chance, but that's not my preferred path.

I suspect the show will jump to a different time and that resolves the timeline/canon thing--Spock has no sister. Starfleet has no spore drive--without resetting or overwriting the timeline.

 

[Quinton]

For me it’s easy. I know some episodes I graded myself as 10 and few as 0. Everything else is in between. If something is on par with an existing episode I graded a 10 a 9 or whatever, that’s the grade I give it. Out of all the Star Trek episodes of all time only a handful earn a 10, best of the best. Only a handful deserve a 0 or 1. Everything else is in between. Nothing from Discovery deserves a 1 or 10, imho, but most episodes end up bunched around 4 or 5.

And hey, nothing wrong with that. We have differing opinions on the quality of this series. We can coexist.

 

[Mr Awe]

Man, is Georgiou going to be red faced after calling it the Prime universe. Honestly, they can't even tell themselves, and they're in it!

Everybody is in their own prime universe!

 

[Yistaan]

And where exactly was that, officially?



Why does no one ever mention V'ger in all of its night-sky blinding 82 AU glory, or Giant Whale Cylinder Thing that Nearly Killed Earth and Knocked out Innumerable spacecraft and stations, or Planet Killers, or the First Federation, or why the Mutara Nebula isn't around anymore because THAT'S where you'd planned to take the kids on vacation this year, or why French people don't sound French while Russian People Sound Polish, or the return of the bug things from Conspiracy.. etc

Look at the context of my quote. No one mentions V'Ger or the Whale Probe because more of them never showed up.

More of Section 31 did show up and it was the focus of DS9. As such, it makes sense for someone to mention the time they wiped out Fed communications.

 

[Kemaiku]

Everybody is in their own prime universe!

Well sort of. She not only calls it the Prime universe weeks ago, but this week calls her own the Mirror universe. Even though Kirk and co haven't been there to have called it that in their logs. She essentially has named the universes canon wise internally to them.

So we're actually only calling them that because of her.

 

[Mr Awe]

They give the figure of about 950 years post 2257, and mention the 28th century, several times.

Yep, that's what they're setting us up for expecting. I'm expecting a twist there as the final reveal of the season. You know, things don't always go according to plan. The crew thinks that's where they're going but problems might occur!

 

[Tuskin38]

Officially it was only minor skirmishes during this time period.

Nothing in the previous series or movies never said there wasn’t a war.

There isn’t going to be a reset.

 

[Kemaiku]

Yep, that's what they're setting us up for expecting. I'm expecting a twist there as the final reveal of the season. You know, things don't always go according to plan. The crew thinks that's where they're going but problems might occur!

The writers of the Picard series say they have about 3 seasons of plot worked out around their own outline. There's nothing implying a link between them anywhere.

 

[Mr Awe]

Well sort of. She not only calls it the Prime universe weeks ago, but this week calls her own the Mirror universe. Even though Kirk and co haven't been there to have called it that in their logs. She essentially has named the universes canon wise internally to them.

So we're actually only calling them that because of her.

Oh, I know. I was just trying to be funny. I'm sure the people from what we consider the Mirror Universe consider themselves to be in their own main, or prime, universe. No one thinks that they are from the alternate universe!

But, yes, I agree, the showrunners are really making it clear that this *IS* the Prime universe as Trek fans mean that term. And, I'm good with that.

 

[Mr Awe]

The writers of the Picard series say they have about 3 seasons of plot worked out around their own outline. There's nothing implying a link between them anywhere.

I never suggested a link between the shows. I'm only guessing that Discovery won't end up in the 28th Century.

 

[Noname Given]

Yeah very similar situation, there had been no Star Trek for a long time and it took a while to get the format right which they did.

Same with Discovery.

At the time it also polarised the fan base although not to the extent that Discovery has, if I remember correctly there were quite a few who were not happy about the direction of TNG at the time, that goes for the visuals and the story lines as they were rather different to ToS and it took some time to adjust.

For me (an old TOS fan) back then. The Visuals weren't the problem - they were a bright spot. The problem was the wholesale retcon of many TOS elements:

- The 'Prime Directive' defectively now applying to ANY 'Non-Federation Member Planet'.

- There being some arbitrary 'Warp Factor' speed limit of 10 and somehow Warp 10 wa 'infinite/everywhere at once' speed. (Th 1701 had dome Warp 14, and in TAS Warp 37 was mentioned. And yes, the whole "It's a NEW Warp scale.." rang bogus/hollow, as it seems many TNG Season 1 staff had never seen any TOS episode (and GR didn't want them to either.)
^^^
And basically THAT attitude of GR towards TOS at that point in time (because back in the day, he sold the Star Trek (TOS) IP right to Paramount, so he could make money off of it, but part of his deal to do/make TNG was that he was going to get a share of the merchandising so for him TOS was dead and buried and TNG was the ONLY Star Trek now) -- was what upset me and a number of TOS era fans back then; and why he was so into retconning/changing TOS elements.

It was also why he planned to 'remake one or more TOS scripts a season; until Paramount saw the fan reaction to "The Naked Now" and thankfully put their foot down and told GR, "No, you won't remake anymore TOS scripts for TNG..." (1988-89 WGA strike not withstanding of course - although those were unproduced 'Star Trek Phase II' scripts.)

 

[Kemaiku]

Oh, I know. I was just trying to be funny. I'm sure the people from what we consider the Mirror Universe consider themselves to be in their own main, or prime, universe. No one thinks that they are from the alternate universe!

But, yes, I agree, the showrunners are really making it clear that this *IS* the Prime universe as Trek fans mean that term. And, I'm good with that.

I think the writers are having a little fun with it too. In that she knows more than they do and letting them realise bit by bit. Which is interesting given Pike's own wink this time.

I wonder if it's a hint at something later. I hope not, the MU is played out, but if they keep it in the S31 series maybe it's fine. Maybe they dump Leland off in her universe.

 

[saladdays]

What will you rate the finale if it’s better than this one?

Ranking systems like this don't work this way. An episode can merit a top score to someone and still not necessarily be better than a previous episode. If you aren't able to give something a 10 just because there "may" be an episode you think that is better in the future, it basically makes the 10 unobtainable, and immaterial. This would be like a movie reviewer who refuses to give any movie four stars just because there may be a better one in the future. That's not how those rankings work, and it's not how these rankings are supposed to work. It's supposed to be based on its own merits, not as relative to other episodes.

 

[Kemaiku]

I never suggested a link between the shows. I'm only guessing that Discovery won't end up in the 28th Century.

You're right. The short story implies the ship overshoots to the 30th/31st century and waits for them.

 

[eschaton]

One interesting thing here is it's painfully clear that Calypso still lies much further in the future of Discovery. That is to say, the captain of Discovery was not Pike at the time, since he disembarked. Also, Discovery is jumping forward in time with crew onboard, rather than being abandoned for 1,000 years for Zora to evolve.

This suggests that - provided Discovery does jump into the future by 500 years, and doesn't jump backwards in time again - Calypso actually takes place 1,500 years or more after the 23rd century.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

It was not a personal comment at all. I said nothing to put him down. I simply pointed out the discrepancy between his words and his actions.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with stating that the show seems to have gotten his dedicated attention and provoked an ongoing reaction from him despite his comments suggesting there isn't much to the show to warrant attention or reaction. That is a valid observation. Not a personal attack.

If the poster can't handle a critical look at his comments on a discussion board, I'd suggest he stop posting because that is what a discussion board is all about.

Just from this thread and the past couple days:

BillJ, today is your lucky day, because I consider you special!

Implying that he's mentally challenged. And don't tell me you weren't, because you can click the link and check the context.

Knowing your comments on this board, yeah, you probably *won't* like it. Best not to watch. (Yeah, that'll happen!)

Telling him to stop watching.

Yet, you're still here whining about it. So, it's doing something to keep your attention!

Telling him he's whining.

I never said you shouldn't discuss it. You were whining about the show not being worth a meltdown, and I simply pointed out that it seems to have enough to get you fixated on it.

And, with this post of yours . . . we're seeing a meltdown in progress. Oh, the irony!

Telling him he's whining and having a meltdown.

You can disagree with his opinion, but don't tell him to stop watching the show or commenting. We're not going to shut down dissenting opinions here.

Now, I'm shutting down your dissenting opinion. This is not a back and forth conversation. PM me if you absolutely must argue the point.

 

[Kemaiku]

One interesting thing here is it's painfully clear that Calypso still lies much further in the future of Discovery. That is to say, the captain of Discovery was not Pike at the time, since he disembarked. Also, Discovery is jumping forward in time with crew onboard, rather than being abandoned for 1,000 years for Zora to evolve.

This suggests that - provided Discovery does jump into the future by 500 years, and doesn't jump backwards in time again - Calypso actually takes place 1,500 years or more after the 23rd century.

Or, the empty ship does get pulled to the 28th century but Burnhams snapback is rough. Meaning the ship waits only 300 years (hence being in such good condition and Zora not being pratically transcendently intelligent) for them to try again and go back, which to them takes only hours or days.

 

[Gonzo]

And where exactly was that, officially?

It was on here quite a while back after the show had started but the issue of it being different came up, not sure who it was but I think it was a timeline from before Discovery started posted by a member showing just border disputes and skirmishes during this time period, you lot spend far more time with the minutiae than I do.

I am fine if it is fixed and set as Prime Universe, I just dont see any way to keep what we have seen so far in the show the same after they successfully stop the AI from evolving, thus undoing any of its actions in the future that have been shown to have affected the present era in the show.

You cant have it both ways.

Also why would the show runner need to make a comment about "aligning the story with ToS" if it already is, it sounded to me like he was preparing the fans for possible changes.

I am just saying that its best to be prepared, very shortly Burnham is going to have the means to make any changes she wants, including undoing some of her own actions that she regrets.

I am absolutely fine if the war is still official after the AI has been defeated and the loop collapses I just know some are not going to be happy about it after the assurances that were given by the show runners, it wont affect my enjoyment of the show whatsoever.

 

[Noname Given]

It can still be Prime Universe but it will require either a reset to undo the war or a change to some dialogue in other Prime Universe shows.

No alternate universe or timeline is required.

It wouldn't require anything of the kind. Star Trek has NEVER been 100% internally consistent from DAY ONE with "The Cage" TV Pilot.

As to the Klingon/Federation war, there never been anything stated that there WASN'T a Klingon/Federation war prior to the short one started in TOS S1 - "Errand Of Mercy". I swear I'll never understand the "Hey, they never mentioned this 10...20...100 years later, so it MUST HAVE NEVER HAPPENED...(Because hey, everything in prior Federation history MUST be stated on the screen....).

Look at the context of my quote. No one mentions V'Ger or the Whale Probe because more of them never showed up.

More of Section 31 did show up and it was the focus of DS9. As such, it makes sense for someone to mention the time they wiped out Fed communications.

Why would Bashir mention something that happened 120 years earlier? Hell, in DS9 S5 - "Trials and Tribble-ations" Bashir stated outright he didn't know a lot about this time period in Federation history.

I'll never understand some fans belief that EVERY character has in depth historical knowledge and recall of any/every past Federation event, big or small.

 

[tomalak301]

I called this episode over-waught in sentimentality. I don’t remember many shows (Star Trek or otherwise) having this much crying, and then it feels like the entire crew is bowing at the feet of Burnham and it’s really hard to connect with the emotions this series wants us to connect. For example there was a scene where we see the characters writing letters to families and, like Airiam's Death, it felt unearned. Compare this to say A Call to Arms in terms of goodbyes and there is much more gravitas to it. Granted we know the characters more but that’s provided by the writing of those characters. We want to see them succeed, we understand why Sisko is pissed at Jake staying on the station, or Leeta and Rom's strife. That’s what character development is.

In this series we never see these people as people, except for Burnham and occasionally Suru and Tilly. Heck, even Stamets has been sidelined this season to relationship drama. We haven’t seen this connection the crew supposedly has with Burnham, so those scenes in the episode feel empty.

My favorite episode this season is If Memory Serves and not just because it was the long awaited sequel to the Cage. It was an episode that slowed down and allowed these characters to be actually people. The scene with Pike and Vina, or the scenes with Burnham and Spock really delivered the emotional weight those scenes deserved.

The last few episodes have shown more crying and more emotional baggage than probably the entire franchise combined. Melodrama for the sake of melodrama doesn’t work unless it’s earned. This series is basically cutting corners and leaving all the important stuff on the cutting room floor. It’s a shame because I do think this season is better for the most part than season 1 but it’s ending like season 1 ended, with the feeling the series can be so much more.