Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x13 - "Such Sweet Sorrow"

[Mr Awe]

Dude, you really need to back the fuck off. This is a discussion forum. You can use Google if you can't figure out the difference between a discussion forum and a pep rally.

I never said you shouldn't discuss it. You were whining about the show not being worth a meltdown, and I simply pointed out that it seems to have enough to get you fixated on it.

And, with this post of yours . . . we're seeing a meltdown in progress. Oh, the irony!

 

[eschaton]

And, though I am liking the Saru story and certainly see other compelling rationales for undertaking it, I was STUNNED that the actual rationale would be that they'd done all they could with the fear-prey side. In fact, they had barely begun to scratch the surface! You could do years and years and years of stories examining that kind of existence from various sci-fi angles. That's one of the great aspects of science fiction, getting to really drill down on these alien ways of being and explore the interesting real world ways it would express itself.

I'm imagining this standard being used on DS9. Like, getting bored with having Odo be standoffish after two seasons. Or bored with Quark being greedy. Or bored with Garak being distrustful.

Ugh.

 

[Rahul]

There's a whole lot more changes than whatever time they happened to be in one season to change the "identity" of the show. You'd have to get rid of the cast and/or the ship to do that. I don't see that happening.

With that move, they get rid of their main cast. Sarek, Amanda, Georgiou all played a much bigger role on the series than Tilly, Stamets of Saru so far. They're swapping out their main cast in favour of the recurring one. You can't get any closer to a complete retool than that. Except maybe changing the entire setting as well. Which... oh yeah... this move would do as well.

 

[saladdays]

Yeah - to be honest, what they did to Saru was quite mind-boggling! Like, I loved the episode itself. But it has been a tremendous dis-service for the character since then.

I actually really liked "prey"-Saru. That was a completely new, and neat concept. And it was actually great to see someone overcoming his fear and instincts, and work as a completely functional being and officer regardless. It was - by all means and purposes - what made him special.

To each his own I guess. I did like "prey" Saru, but I have liked the growth of the character, as well as "confident" Saru.

 

[fireproof78]

There's only so many ways you can say "that was awesome" after all, while discussing the faults of something can lead to pretty lengthy essays - and is ultimately much more fun.

I do not agree with this idea. I would rather take something apart and figure out why it works in an awesome way than to find ways to criticize it more. I get constructive criticism but pulling something apart just for fun feels really strange to me.

Dude, you really need to back the fuck off. This is a discussion forum. You can use Google if you can't figure out the difference between a discussion forum and a pep rally.

Perhaps we need to take a step back?

 

[eschaton]

I dunno, maybe I just have a different psychology to a lot of fans. Because when people tell me that my favorite things suck, my basic response is just "okay, whatever, you have bad taste."

I basically have no "team mentality" whatsoever. For the same reason I've never been able to understand how people root for a given sports team. I just do not personally identify with the things I like in any visceral way. I just enjoy them on an intellectual level.

 

[BillJ]

Perhaps we need to take a step back?

No. This is something that has been going on since before today. Thanks though.

 

[Tim Thomason]

The Picard show is end of 24th early 25th, And if that time period shows a reasonable amount of interest, it too might offer a spinoff after he's gone.

Not even a spinoff. Just have Picard get killed nobly at the end of the second season or so, and the cast will go on without him.

 

[Alan Roi]

With that move, they get rid of their main cast. Sarek, Amanda, Georgiou all played a much bigger role on the series than Tilly, Stamets of Saru so far. They're swapping out their main cast in favour of the recurring one. You can't get any closer to a complete retool than that. Except maybe changing the entire setting as well. Which... oh yeah... this move would do as well.

Sarek, Amanda and Georgiou are recurring characters who each have showed up in 1/2 the episodes. That isn't your main cast. The core cast is remaining intact.

 

[Mr Awe]

I actually really liked "prey"-Saru. That was a completely new, and neat concept. And it was actually great to see someone overcoming his fear and instincts, and work as a completely functional being and officer regardless. It was - by all means and purposes - what made him special.

I agree, I did like the prey aspect of Saru. It made him unique. I'm not familiar with another intelligent species that were the prey rather than predator. It would have been interesting to explore that further.

I don't mind evolving Saru to a different level, but would've liked exploring the old Saru further first. Agree with the notion that they didn't explore him much--other than superficially with his ganglia thing at a few crisis moments.

 

[Tim Thomason]

No. This is something that has been going on since before today. Thanks though.

The line must be drawn here! No further! I will make them pay for what they have done!

 

[Rahul]

I'm imagining this standard being used on DS9. Like, getting bored with having Odo be standoffish after two seasons. Or bored with Quark being greedy. Or bored with Garak being distrustful.

Ugh.

Well - they did. But they were clever about it. They got bored of the Odo-Quark bickering, and thought Bashir-Garak was getting stale as a combo.

Know what they did? They didn't switch the characters. They switched the pairing. Odo was suddenly forced to face off with Garak. Quark got to face of with the fucking Dominion and had to decide where he stands. And Bashir got a whole new backstory (okay, that one didn't really work out).

I wish they did the same with Discovery. They have a fuckin' amazing cast. How about pairing off Tilly with Saru? Together they could find the solution to any problem, actually implementing it would been the challenge for the two! Use Stamet's snark to undercut Burnhams melodramatism - have your cake and eat it too? It's a fucking great character ensemble. USE IT.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

The original plan was entirely an anthology show. That was scrapped already anyway, and having a two-season continous arc with the same characters in the same setting already sets up a new "identity" for the show..

Honestly though, considering how disjointed the story arcs have been since the show's premiere (probably due to the several changes in showrunners), the show is almost a defacto anthology.

The one constant is the ship and crew, but those are almost just "settings". The first season direction with Lorca feels so much different than the direction taken in the second season with Pike, and I have a feeling the third season will again take the show in a whole different direction relative to the first two seasons.

Other that he crew staying the same, each of the first two seasons has felt like their own things, much like anthology TV shows like American Horror story and Fargo.

 

[Alan Roi]

Not even a spinoff. Just have Picard get killed nobly at the end of the second season or so, and the cast will go on without him.

Will work for me if they are interesting enough and have something interesting to do. Its tough though. As early as Blakes Seven i've seen how a Scifi show can fall apart once interesting characters start getting replaced by less interesting ones. Mind you, it was still Blakes Seven to me even though Blake was gone, the ship was gone as it still had its two best core characters. You'd really have to pull an Earth The Final Conflict for me to say that they were actually retooling the show.

 

[Longinus]

Yeah - to be honest, what they did to Saru was quite mind-boggling! Like, I loved the episode itself. But it has been a tremendous dis-service for the character since then.

I actually really liked "prey"-Saru. That was a completely new, and neat concept. And it was actually great to see someone overcoming his fear and instincts, and work as a completely functional being and officer regardless. It was - by all means and purposes - what made him special.

Taking that away from him, was IMO akin to taking away Spock's logic. Or Worf's honour-fetish. Like, yeah, some things were handled a bit clunky (like the "fear boner"). But so were Spock and Worf early on. I just wish they'd have actually sticked to the concept, and got better at it! Instead - Saru now has nothing that makes him special anymore. The only thing saving him is the fantastic acting. But apart from that, he acts like any other Officer would. Esentially, he lost his unique perspective on the world. That was such a shame.

Yep. I completely agree. And they really have not done anything interesting with Saru since that change.

 

[eschaton]

Sarek, Amanda and Georgiou are recurring characters who each have showed up in 1/2 the episodes. That isn't your main cast. The core cast is remaining intact.

Georgiou may have gotten more lines overall over the second season than Stamets though. She doesn't appear in every episode like he does, but when she does, she's given some weighty, dialogue-heavy scenes.

 

[saladdays]

With that move, they get rid of their main cast. Sarek, Amanda, Georgiou all played a much bigger role on the series than Tilly, Stamets of Saru so far. They're swapping out their main cast in favour of the recurring one. You can't get any closer to a complete retool than that. Except maybe changing the entire setting as well. Which... oh yeah... this move would do as well.

In no way are Sarek, Amanda, and Georgiou "main cast."

 

[Campe]

Dude, this is a ridiculous standard. Let me attach it to other things.

• Think this song sucks? I'd like to see you compose/play a better one!
• Think this painting sucks? Get out your paint brush!
• Think that football play was done terribly? Get onto the field and show us what you can do!

Basically, it completely and totally eliminates the ability to critique basically anything. It completely invalidates the feelings that anyone - other than the creator or performer - has about any work unless they are also capable of doing the act in question. Might as well just fold up the forum entirely as well.

I'm also not a hater. I rated this episode a 7. I spoke to some of the strengths. I've enjoyed the season overall. When it comes down to it, I'm just a highly critical person when it comes to artistic works, even of things I like. I enjoy tearing them apart and analyzing them. There's only so many ways you can say "that was awesome" after all, while discussing the faults of something can lead to pretty lengthy essays - and is ultimately much more fun.

I disagree that it eliminates the ability to criticize things. I even suggested one can be critical of an episode without attacking the people behind it. I liked this episode a lot because of the character moments, but there are a lot of things I don't like. I choose not to be overly critical of them. That's my choice. You choose to criticize many of the things that happened in the episode. I don't have a problem with that. We all have our opinions on things and we are entitled to such.

However, the idea that was presented that they needed to learn how to write a season-long arc isn't fair, We only know the aspects of the production that are told to us, but it is obvious that the changes fundamentally altered the course of the season. I don't criticize Kurtzman for that. I don't agree with every decision made, but I think its unfair when there has been continuous serious upheavals in the behind the scenes over the course of this show have been problematic. The show needs a consistent voice running the room. I'm hopeful that in season three, we actually see that. Kurtzman may not have agreed with the direction Harbets and Berg were taking the show. Budget cuts cause story decisions to be changed or action set pieces to be changed.

Its just very easy to criticize these things when you're an outside observer. I'm just saying there are a lot of things that can go wrong that we don't see. Maybe I didn't present it well to begin with. For that I apologize.

 

[Alan Roi]

Honestly though, considering how disjointed the story arcs have been since the show's premiere (probably due to the several changes in showrunners), the show is almost a defacto anthology.

The one constant is the ship and crew, but those are almost just "settings". The first season direction with Lorca feels so much different than the direction taken in the second season with Pike, and I have a feeling the third season will again take the show in a whole different direction relative to the first two seasons.

Yeah, in the same way Star Trek has always been an anthology show. The difference being now each story is a whole season instead of lating 45-90 minutes. And for some reason this still seems to confound people.

 

[BillJ]

I don't criticize Kurtzman for that. I don't agree with every decision made, but I think its unfair when there has been continuous serious upheavals in the behind the scenes over the course of this show have been problematic.

Kurtzman is absolutely the one to criticize for any problems Discovery has. It is his show that his production company is making. It is on him that things with Berg and Harberts got out of hand to begin with, and as the showrunner, it was his job to make sure the transition was smooth.