Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x13 - "Such Sweet Sorrow"

[BillJ]

For those who want to be amused, I recommend heading over to Jammers. The regular suspect there are all sharing a collective meltdown over this ep.

I wish the episode had done something interesting enough to have a meltdown over.

 

[Tuskin38]

We haven't heard anything about cast changes for season 3. So assuming there are no changes to the main cast then Spock, Georgiou and Po have to get out of Discovery before it goes into future but Tyler and Culber have to decide to stay. They have said that Michelle Yeoh will be back for 3rd season, so maybe Georgiou does stay.

Season 3 might not entirely focus on the future, they could cut back and forth between wherever Discovery is and the 23rd century.

Maybe Georgiou is trying to find a way to get them back from the future. Or at least try and save Michael.

The TOS Enterprise was a Starship Class.

It was both.

 

[Mr Awe]

We just don't know, but it's kind of bonkers that we have reached the point where the showrunners feel the need to actually do something like this.

Changing time frames was the original plan. We just weren't sure if they were going to stick with that given the changes in the showrunners. Now we know that they're sticking with that premise, although they seem to have altered the execution of it. So, not bonkers.

 

[Alan Roi]

I'm not some Midnight's Edge conspiracy theorist or anything. I've never even watched any of their videos. But CBS isn't going to release anything other than good news regarding All Access.



I haven't been "constantly" saying it. This is just a realization I've slowly come to over the last two weeks as information about the jump to the future and the (increasingly likely) hinted Pike spinoff have come out. Both of these strike me as not good for the future of Discovery.

• The time jump can be seen as sort of extreme measure to cut the show loose from the shackles of canon and try something new in an era where almost nothing is canonically established. Historically, shows only take big risks like this when ratings are flagging (see Xindi arc).
• At the same time, the Pike show can be seen as sort of a soft reboot of part of the Discovery concept. Take a well-known actor who has done a great job with a canonical captain who will be a "safe pair of hands" for the franchise. Bring in additional fan nostalgia as needed (Enterprise, Number One, probably Spock, maybe others).

I mean, there are very, very few cases of prestige serialized dramas which haven't had a consistent showrunner all the way through. Honestly the only reason Discovery has survived three/four showrunner swaps to date is because of the Star Trek next to its name - the value of the brand. Otherwise it would have been shitcanned as soon as Fuller was fired.



Again, my caveat was if the Pike show exists, and if it exceeds Discovery in popularity. I don't know if either one of those will happen. But at a certain point it won't be enough for Discovery to be Trek. It's going to looked at in the same cold, dispassionate manner by CBS as the other 4+ Trek shows running concurrently.

You may claim to not be a Midnight's Edge conspiracy theorist, but you certainly have just about every one their talking points down pat.

 

[XCV330]

Season 3 might not entirely focus on the future, they could cut back and forth between wherever Discovery is and the 23rd century.

Maybe Georgiou is trying to find a way to get them back from the future. Or at least Michael.



It was both.

if Culber stays on Enterprise they'll find a way to reunite him with Stamets as well. Stamets can interface with the Mycellial network and Culber kind of lived there for awhile. I do think the next season will be sort of bifurcated between both ships.

 

[starbuck]

That brought a tear to me when we seen the enterprise bridge, hope we see more of the bridge after we get a big reset lol

 

[Alan Roi]

I wish the episode had done something interesting enough to have a meltdown over.

To be fair, they are pretty easily melted down over there.

 

[Rahul]

Changing time frames was the original plan. We just weren't sure if they were going to stick with that given the changes in the showrunners. Now we know that they're sticking with that premise, although they seem to have altered the execution of it. So, not bonkers.

The original plan was entirely an anthology show. That was scrapped already anyway, and having a two-season continous arc with the same characters in the same setting already sets up a new "identity" for the show.

You may claim to not be a Midnight's Edge conspiracy theorist, but you certainly have just about every one their talking points down pat.

Naw, man. Absolutely not.

 

[Sakonna]

Could be they feel they've done all they can realistically do in the 23rd century? If that's the case, it could be a bad sign for a potential Pike show.

I wish I could find the link to the source, but in some article on Disco I saw some quote from I think Kurtzman about how they evolved Saru this season because they felt they'd fully explored his prey-fear side and it was time to move onto something new.

And, though I am liking the Saru story and certainly see other compelling rationales for undertaking it, I was STUNNED that the actual rationale would be that they'd done all they could with the fear-prey side. In fact, they had barely begun to scratch the surface! You could do years and years and years of stories examining that kind of existence from various sci-fi angles. That's one of the great aspects of science fiction, getting to really drill down on these alien ways of being and explore the interesting real world ways it would express itself.

That's been lodged in my brain since then, every time Disco has rushed through something that it would have been awesome to take their time with (a remarkably frequent occurrence).

 

[Mr Awe]

Again, my caveat was if the Pike show exists, and if it exceeds Discovery in popularity. I don't know if either one of those will happen. But at a certain point it won't be enough for Discovery to be Trek. It's going to looked at in the same cold, dispassionate manner by CBS as the other 4+ Trek shows running concurrently.

Yeah, I got your caveats. But, if Discovery is doing well, and there is a Pike series (or other ST series) that is doing even better, that doesn't mean they'll ditch Discovery. Having two series performing well is better than one.

One thing I'll grant you is that if there is Pike series, or other Trek series that are doing very well, it'll be easier for CBS to pull the plug on Discovery if it's not doing well. But, no, if it's doing well, they have reason to keep it even if there are other successful ST series.

 

[XCV330]

That brought a tear to me when we seen the enterprise bridge, hope we see more of the bridge after we get a big reset lol

I don't know why this idea of a reset continues to hang on despite all signs its not going to happen. I didn't see any reset button on that bridge. They're going to use the bridge sure, and Discovery seems like its about to go discover things but that doesn't imply a reset at all.

 

[Tuskin38]

That brought a tear to me when we seen the enterprise bridge, hope we see more of the bridge after we get a big reset lol

There’s not going to be a reset.

 

[Mr Awe]

The original plan was entirely an anthology show. That was scrapped already anyway, and having a two-season continous arc with the same characters in the same setting already sets up a new "identity" for the show.

Right, as I said, they kept that time change aspect but changed the execution by keeping the same characters.

 

[eschaton]

No, its time for commentors like that to put their money where their mouth is. Show me what you can do better knowing that there are a world of possibilities of things where things can and often do go wrong. I'm willing to read ideas, but someone suggesting, "This sucks and they can do better" don't know the realities of TV production. Budget crunches. Showrunner changes. Studio mandates. These are things that all affect the production of a show.

Dude, this is a ridiculous standard. Let me attach it to other things.

• Think this song sucks? I'd like to see you compose/play a better one!
• Think this painting sucks? Get out your paint brush!
• Think that football play was done terribly? Get onto the field and show us what you can do!

Basically, it completely and totally eliminates the ability to critique basically anything. It completely invalidates the feelings that anyone - other than the creator or performer - has about any work unless they are also capable of doing the act in question. Might as well just fold up the forum entirely as well.

I'm also not a hater. I rated this episode a 7. I spoke to some of the strengths. I've enjoyed the season overall. When it comes down to it, I'm just a highly critical person when it comes to artistic works, even of things I like. I enjoy tearing them apart and analyzing them. There's only so many ways you can say "that was awesome" after all, while discussing the faults of something can lead to pretty lengthy essays - and is ultimately much more fun.

 

[Alan Roi]

The original plan was entirely an anthology show. That was scrapped already anyway, and having a two-season continous arc with the same characters in the same setting already sets up a new "identity" for the show.

There's a whole lot more changes than whatever time they happened to be in one season to change the "identity" of the show. You'd have to get rid of the cast and/or the ship to do that. I don't see that happening.

 

[Mr Awe]

I wish the episode had done something interesting enough to have a meltdown over.

Yet, you're still here whining about it. So, it's doing something to keep your attention!

 

[Tim Thomason]

Section 31 is (probably) going to be 23rd century. The Pike Show, too, if that is more than a myth. And who knows about Lower Decks or the Nickelodeon series or Starfleet Academy.

Discovery is staying true to its name by exploring a new era. The 23rd century might be getting crowded soon, and its best to be able to differentiate the shows.

 

[BillJ]

Yet, you're still here whining about it. So, it's doing something to keep your attention!

Dude, you really need to back the fuck off. This is a discussion forum. You can use Google if you can't figure out the difference between a discussion forum and a pep rally.

 

[Rahul]

I wish I could find the link to the source, but in some article on Disco I saw some quote from I think Kurtzman about how they evolved Saru this season because they felt they'd fully explored his prey-fear side and it was time to move onto something new.

And, though I am liking the Saru story and certainly see other compelling rationales for undertaking it, I was STUNNED that the actual rationale would be that they'd done all they could with the fear-prey side. In fact, they had barely begun to scratch the surface! You could do years and years and years of stories examining that kind of existence from various sci-fi angles. That's one of the great aspects of science fiction, getting to really drill down on these alien ways of being and explore the interesting world ways it would express itself.

That's been lodged in my brain since then, every time Disco has rushed through something that it would have been awesome to take their time with (a remarkably frequent occurrence).

Yeah - to be honest, what they did to Saru was quite mind-boggling! Like, I loved the episode itself. But it has been a tremendous dis-service for the character since then.

I actually really liked "prey"-Saru. That was a completely new, and neat concept. And it was actually great to see someone overcoming his fear and instincts, and work as a completely functional being and officer regardless. It was - by all means and purposes - what made him special.

Taking that away from him, was IMO akin to taking away Spock's logic. Or Worf's honour-fetish. Like, yeah, some things were handled a bit clunky (like the "fear boner"). But so were Spock and Worf early on. I just wish they'd have actually sticked to the concept, and got better at it! Instead - Saru now has nothing that makes him special anymore. The only thing saving him is the fantastic acting. But apart from that, he acts like any other Officer would. Esentially, he lost his unique perspective on the world. That was such a shame.

 

[Alan Roi]

Section 31 is (probably) going to be 23rd century. The Pike Show, too, if that is more than a myth. And who knows about Lower Decks or the Nickelodeon series or Starfleet Academy.

Discovery is staying true to its name by exploring a new era. The 23rd century might be getting crowded soon, and its best to be able to differentiate the shows.

The Picard show is end of 24th early 25th, And if that time period shows a reasonable amount of interest, it too might offer a spinoff after he's gone.