Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x13 - "Such Sweet Sorrow"

[Alan Roi]

Eh, I dunno. Whatever the original intent, Discovery has no core concept any longer, other than it's a narrowly focused show with Michael Burnham as the protagonist. Thematically speaking a time jump is just fine for that reason.

And they could use the exact same more developed storytelling techniques to tell 23rd century tales on the Pike show.

I was not one of those people. I always knew despite the flaws of season 1, it would get a second season, because CBS wanted to revive the Trek franchise, and Discovery was the only tool they had for that. Even if CBS was unhappy with the series (and I have no reason to think they were) if they canned it they'd have to wait another two years minimum to get their shit together to pilot another series.

That's no longer the case though. The Picard show is coming, as is Lower Decks. A Pike show may be coming, along with the Section 31 show. Plus various Short Treks, and the other animated Trek series which is going to be on Nickelodeon. And who knows - within another year or so - how many other projects (shorts, miniseries, etc) will be in production. Basically, if one or more of the new Trek series takes off, and is actually more successful with viewers than Discovery, it eliminates a lot of the rationale of keeping Discovery going. Indeed, one could argue that given how much Trek is coming down the pike (no pun intended) that it makes sense each individual series runs for a shorter period of time, with new series being cycled in to replace the old ones.

Disco managed to put CBS 2 years ahead of subscriptions at its marquee original content, and convinced them to expand the line. Since they appear to be committed to all year Trek, dumping their flagship show that's evidently building an audience would seem kinda dumb. I know people are hoping and praying that *any* other Trek show will do better, but that remains to be seen, and won't be for some time.

To be constantly suggesting that it will be dropped like a hot potato would seem to fly in the face of all the data that's been released about the success of the series.

 

[Campe]

If only they knew how to properly construct a season arc that made sense. Better luck next time.

I really tire of the armchair showrunning. If people think they can do better, go do so.

 

[saladdays]

I will always remember her as Romijn-Stamos. Saying just "Romijn" always seemed weird to me.

Funny, as the "Romijn-Stamos" always seemed weird to me, I guess because I was familiar with her before she was married to John Stamos.

 

[Mr Awe]

In fairness, they haven't watched nearly as much Star Trek as we have.

That should be a major portion of the training in Starfleet Academy!

 

[Tim Thomason]

I really tire of the armchair showrunning. If people think they can do better, go do so.

I can do better. Or, at least, I need the money.

 

[Gonzo]

I broadly agree here. I mean, I've not liked where the arc has been going at all this season, but it's much better than the first season - particularly when it comes to characterization - and I expect it will get even better in the third season.

If only they knew how to properly construct a season arc that made sense. Better luck next time.

I think its pretty clear they had problems in the writing room and in regards to the shows direction from the start.

Too many cooks in the kitchen perhaps.

 

[ITDUDE]

I really tire of the armchair showrunning. If people think they can do better, go do so.

You must be new here... (checks join date) wait no...
Well, lol, I tried giving you benefit of the doubt
Armchair showrunning is what we have been doing since '66
Aint' stopping anything soon.

You have to be critical sometimes. Being in full on fanboyz/fangirlz mode all the time is not healthy.

 

[saladdays]

I really tire of the armchair showrunning. If people think they can do better, go do so.

I think it's fair and well within fans' right to have complaints on the showrunning. It's what fans do. But I do think it quickly gets way over the top sometimes.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I really tire of the armchair showrunning. If people think they can do better, go do so.

Or perhaps they could stop watching a show that goes against their highly evolved sensibilities

 

[Sakonna]

I really tire of the armchair showrunning.

In that case, I would suggest not spending your time reading a discussion board in which armchair showrunning is the entire point.

 

[Campe]

You must be new here... (checks join date) wait no...
Well, lol, I tried giving you benefit of the doubt
Armchair showrunning is what we have been doing since '66
Aint' stopping anything soon.

And in the 18 years I've been here, the number of ideas that are actually better than the producers can be counted on one hand.

Just sayin'.

 

[Mr Awe]

But Michael's story in particular is only going to have three chapters, and a fixed ending. Indeed, the jump to the future (something which seemingly has been planned at least since Kurtzman took over) could be seen as an attempt to shake up the show - to transport the characters (who are seen as the bright spot) into a new setting where they can be more freeform with storytelling.

I think you're correct about the reasons for jumping to the future. But, that doesn't necessarily mean Discovery will have only three seasons. I think it'll be a normal renewal/non-renewal type decision based on how well the show is doing. If it's doing well, they'll have no incentive for getting rid of it.

 

[Rahul]

Please, the show is about the characters and the ship first, anything else is just where they happen to go.

Eh, I dunno. Whatever the original intent, Discovery has no core concept any longer, other than it's a narrowly focused show with Michael Burnham as the protagonist. Thematically speaking a time jump is just fine for that reason.

Errr.... yes and no. At this point, this show - like any other Star Trek - is whatever any viewer sees in it. What might be stupid waste for one person (Burnham), is what holds the entire show together for another (Burnham).

For me, this was a show that was very adamant about galaxy-wide worldbuilding as well (even if it didn't always succeeded at that). Telling big stories about war, and cast members from outside the ship (Sarek & Amanda, Cornwell, Spock, Georgiou, Leland, Pike) oftentimes had bigger roles in the plot than the actual "main cast" (Tilly, Stamets, Saru) of the ship themselves. I would have had an easier time with the Ent-D crew being in the future for a season, because the entire show was focused on that ship anyway. I can't say that about DIS at this point.

Getting rid of so much of what the show was about in one swoop simply risks alienating fans. "Thor:Ragnarok" was a movie that many people that didn't like Thor that much in the first place enjoyed. But for many Thor fans it was quite disappointing how much it god rid of pretty much everything that the previous Thor movies were about.

I for example never connected the main ship that much with the show. It started out for two episodes on the Shenzhou. And so far, the Discovery has never grown as a "home" for the characters. In fact, for me personally, this show would probably stay "more" to it's identity if they got rid of the main ship, and all the main characters just served on the Enterprise next season. But you might see that completely different, and that position would be equally valid.

As I said - this would be a revamp of a show to an unprecedented scale, and it might work for some, and not for others. Hell, who knows, maybe it will work out perfectly fine for me, but not for you? We just don't know, but it's kind of bonkers that we have reached the point where the showrunners feel the need to actually do something like this.

 

[ITDUDE]

And in the 18 years I've been here, the number of ideas that are actually better than the producers can be counted on one hand.

Just sayin'.

That's just wrong. I can come up with 10 ideas better than TATV all by myself, and I am neither a writer nor a producer

 

[BillJ]

...but it's kind of bonkers that we have reached the point where the showrunners feel the need to actually do something like this.

Could be they feel they've done all they can realistically do in the 23rd century? If that's the case, it could be a bad sign for a potential Pike show.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Or perhaps they could stop watching a show that goes against their highly evolved sensibilities

Look, I don't know anything about proper story structure (other than the Stewart test), and I generally, outside of snide jokes, support the show very much.

But even if the show was terrible, horrible (which it is not), you're going to have to pry the intangible CBS All-Access subscription from my cold, dead hands. I will always watch Star Trek, in whatever form it takes, and I certainly wouldn't abandon it during its time of need.

 

[Campe]

In that case, I would suggest not spending your time reading a discussion board in which armchair showrunning is the entire point.

No, its time for commentors like that to put their money where their mouth is. Show me what you can do better knowing that there are a world of possibilities of things where things can and often do go wrong. I'm willing to read ideas, but someone suggesting, "This sucks and they can do better" don't know the realities of TV production. Budget crunches. Showrunner changes. Studio mandates. These are things that all affect the production of a show.

Instead of considering that, people just attack, attack, attack. I've not been 100% thrilled with the direction of this show. I HATE the Control arc. I think its ridiculously stupid. I choose to focus on the things I enjoy in the show. And if I can't, I choose instead, to just stop watching. But if I need to I can be critical without suggesting that someone doesn't know how to do their job. Don't attack someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That's what I find problematic.

 

[eschaton]

Disco managed to put CBS 2 years ahead of subscriptions at its marquee original content, and convinced them to expand the line. Since they appear to be committed to all year Trek, dumping their flagship show would seem kinda dumb. I know people are hoping and praying that *any* other Trek show will do better, but that remains to be seen, and won't be for some time..

I'm not some Midnight's Edge conspiracy theorist or anything. I've never even watched any of their videos. But CBS isn't going to release anything other than good news regarding All Access.

To be constantly suggesting that it will be dropped like a hot potato would seem to fly in the face of all the data that's been released about the success of the series.

I haven't been "constantly" saying it. This is just a realization I've slowly come to over the last two weeks as information about the jump to the future and the (increasingly likely) hinted Pike spinoff have come out. Both of these strike me as not good for the future of Discovery.

• The time jump can be seen as sort of extreme measure to cut the show loose from the shackles of canon and try something new in an era where almost nothing is canonically established. Historically, shows only take big risks like this when ratings are flagging (see Xindi arc).
• At the same time, the Pike show can be seen as sort of a soft reboot of part of the Discovery concept. Take a well-known actor who has done a great job with a canonical captain who will be a "safe pair of hands" for the franchise. Bring in additional fan nostalgia as needed (Enterprise, Number One, probably Spock, maybe others).

I think its pretty clear they had problems in the writing room and in regards to the shows direction from the start.

Too many cooks in the kitchen perhaps.

I mean, there are very, very few cases of prestige serialized dramas which haven't had a consistent showrunner all the way through. Honestly the only reason Discovery has survived three/four showrunner swaps to date is because of the Star Trek next to its name - the value of the brand. Otherwise it would have been shitcanned as soon as Fuller was fired.

I think you're correct about the reasons for jumping to the future. But, that doesn't necessarily mean than Discovery will have only three seasons. I think it'll be a normal renewal/non-renewal type decision based on how well the show is doing. If it's doing well, they'll have no incentive for getting rid of it.

Again, my caveat was if the Pike show exists, and if it exceeds Discovery in popularity. I don't know if either one of those will happen. But at a certain point it won't be enough for Discovery to be Trek. It's going to looked at in the same cold, dispassionate manner by CBS as the other 4+ Trek shows running concurrently.

 

[Rahul]

Could be they feel they've done all they can realistically do in the 23rd century? If that's the case, it could be a bad sign for a potential Pike show.

The problem is: Alex Kurtzman has a habit of setting up gigantic, interconnected franchise universes (Amazing Spider-Man part 2, Universals' monster universe with "The Mummy", Transformers spin-offs) - and then dropping them like hot potatoes, because no one made sure the first entry is actually good enough in it's own right.

I fear this is what's hapening here as well - the idea they need to "start from scratch" both for a 23rd century show and DIS itself. Again: Franchise management. Instead of just putting all the focus on the one thing they have at hand and make it work.

I appreciated season 2 so much, because it looked like they were really trying to fix what show had. NOT throwing out the baby with the dishwater!

 

[Alan Roi]

For those who want to be amused, I recommend heading over to Jammers. The regular suspect there are all sharing a collective meltdown over this ep.