Spoilers The Red Suit

[Timo]

Honestly, I'm not seeing the problem here. Our heroes are beduffled by the Red Angel entity exactly because it seems to have supernatural powers. It now turns out it's a fancy spacesuit - but it is obligated by story logic to have those supernatural powers. It would make no sense for it to lack them.

That the supernatural powers would come from S31 research in the 2230s is a story that Leland tells our white hat heroes when they are on S31's tail already. Their response to that is "Bullshit - you're leaving something important unsaid". We're still waiting for Leland's response to that, and his current status may result in quite a delay in getting that response...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ITDUDE]

I think at this point Discovery camp (see I didn't use STD) is split into two sides. Those who anxiously want to explain everything that producers are doing, trying to tie everything together in something that resembles common sense. And then there are those that figured out that there will be a huge big RED reset button and everything will go back to status quo (whatever that is). That second side is actually now enjoying the show more for what it is, absurdity wrapped in Trek clothing. I know I am enjoying it more now that I gave up trying to make sense of any of it. It's a show based on Trek, but has nothing to do with the actual Trek except for some logos and emblems on crew uniforms.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Maybe rewatch Equinox as one example of Janeway blocking her crew from using readily available technology to get home quickly time and time again because she deemed it a bad idea.

And how does using the Iron Angel suit compare to killing sentient beings? Keeping in mind the technology used and risks taken in "Endgame" and other episodes.

 

[fireproof78]

Again, I don't think anyone is objecting to magic tech per se. But the time, place, and manner in which magic tech is presented has an awful lot to do with how plausibly it comes across.

Again, plausibility is a thin line for many. For me, DSC has not crossed that line in terms of past Trek tech and their solutions. Mileage will certainly vary on this point, but whenever time travel gets involved I suspend disbelief a little bit more.

 

[Alan Roi]

And how does using the Iron Angel suit compare to killing sentient beings? Keeping in mind the technology used and risks taken in "Endgame" and other episodes.

Seriously? How about keeping in mind what is going on in this series.

The red angel creates a wormhole that stretched into possible futures. The killer AI from a possible future uses it to come back in time to infect current control in its efforts to wipe out all sentient life. Massive amounts of sentient beings die as a result, as is made clear and that 800+ attempts to prevent this have failed. So not, not quite the tecnhobabbling manner Voyager solved its return home in the last 2 eps of Voyager. There, the problem was made easy because she was decades ahead of the Borg in knowledge.

Again, you still think Janeway would think using this suit is a good idea? Given the known consequences of having to deal with a future version of Control? So what if she took risks along Voyager's way. There were numerous short cuts that would have gotten them all home much sooner, that she blocked, citing reasons.

 

[Alan Roi]

I think at this point Discovery camp (see I didn't use STD) is split into two sides. Those who anxiously want to explain everything that producers are doing, trying to tie everything together in something that resembles common sense. And then there are those that figured out that there will be a huge big RED reset button and everything will go back to status quo (whatever that is). That second side is actually now enjoying the show more for what it is, absurdity wrapped in Trek clothing. I know I am enjoying it more now that I gave up trying to make sense of any of it. It's a show based on Trek, but has nothing to do with the actual Trek except for some logos and emblems on crew uniforms.

That sounds pretty reductive, IMO. I have no trouble making sense of this series and it being actual Trek.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Again, you still think Janeway would think using this suit is a good idea?

Yes, absolutely. The woman who rewrote 25 years of galactic history to save 2 friends and get her crew home a little sooner, and risked brining the Borg to earth again wouldn't think twice about using Red Angel suit tech to get her crew home.

 

[Alan Roi]

Yes, absolutely. The woman who rewrote 25 years of galactic history to save 2 friends and get her crew home a little sooner, and risked brining the Borg to earth again wouldn't think twice about using Red Angel suit tech to get her crew home.

In retrospect I don't see any risks taken at all. Its clear that with her future knowledge Janeway is well ahead of everyone at every turn and is taking no actual risks. The red suit demonstrably has done nothing but screw things up even worse, as Gabrielle's logs show, has fails in hundreds of attempts and opened up the past to threats from the future because of its use, making things even worse. There is no comparison, IMO, to Endgame.

 

[F. King Daniel]

In retrospect I don't see any risks taken at all. Its clear that with her future knowledge Janeway is well ahead of everyone at every turn and is taking no actual risks.

The show ends with the Borg having successfully assimilated 25th century ablative armour technology, rendering their one advantage over the collective useless. Oh yeah, and the episode ends with a Borg sphere over Earth.

 

[lawman]

That the supernatural powers would come from S31 research in the 2230s is a story that Leland tells our white hat heroes when they are on S31's tail already. Their response to that is "Bullshit - you're leaving something important unsaid". We're still waiting for Leland's response to that, and his current status may result in quite a delay in getting that response...

Or to put it another way, it results in a convenient delay for the writers in having to deliver whatever was "unsaid," inasmuch as they hadn't actually devised an explanation yet...

 

[Alan Roi]

The show ends with the Borg having successfully assimilated 25th century ablative armour technology, rendering their one advantage over the collective useless. Oh yeah, and the episode ends with a Borg sphere over Earth.

You mean the borg sphere that Janeway easily blew up the moment it emerged 1ly from Earth as soon as it emerged from the now obliterated transwarp corridor? Yeah, again, just proves my point. No risk at all. Janeway was five steps ahead all the way.

 

[Alan Roi]

inasmuch as they hadn't actually devised an explanation yet...

I personaly see no evidence to support a statement support that claim.

 

[F. King Daniel]

You mean the borg sphere that Janeway easily blew up the moment it emerged 1ly from Earth as soon as it emerged from the now obliterated transwarp corridor? Yeah, again, just proves my point. No risk at all. Janeway was five steps ahead all the way.

Yes, from inside. The fleet attacking outside had no effect. And the Borg still have the armour technology from the future. And a transwarp aperture in Earth orbit.

But the episode has no risk whatsoever. Okay.

 

[BillJ]

Yes, from inside. The fleet attacking outside had no effect. And the Borg still have the armour technology from the future. And a transwarp aperture in Earth orbit.

But the episode has no risk whatsoever. Okay.

It was a risk. Because Admiral Janeway couldn't predict with any certainty how things would turn out.

 

[Alan Roi]

Yes, from inside. The fleet attacking outside had no effect. And the Borg still have the armour technology from the future. And a transwarp aperture in Earth orbit.

But the episode has no risk whatsoever. Okay.

I guess you missed that the transwarp corridor was obliterated.

 

[Alan Roi]

It was a risk. Because Admiral Janeway couldn't predict with any certainty how things would turn out.

Again, every single step of the way she was ahead of the borg. Every. Single. Step.

 

[BillJ]

Again, every single step of the way she was ahead of the borg. Every. Single. Step.

Usually when things are written in that manner, it is a sign of lazy writing. Everything lining up exactly as seen. This is no different. Not to mention the trillions of lives the Admiral changed to save two people.

 

[Alan Roi]

Usually when things are written in that manner, it is a sign of lazy writing. Everything lining up exactly as seen. This is no different. Not to mention the trillions of lives the Admiral changed to save two people.

Sure, we can agree after years of Voyager 'it never happened' eps they got lazier and lazier, because at that point, what did it matter if they wrote another 'it never happened' ep. Heck, that was one of Voyager's major themes: don't like what happened? Rewrite history. I haven't seen any indication of the writers of Disco doing the same. Mrs. Burhnam's attempt to change history has been one fuck up after another and even after 800 tries she's still no closer than she was day one as far as we know.

 

[BillJ]

I haven't seen any indication of the writers of Disco doing the same.

If they are doing a reset, I imagine Spock will walk away with a hazy feeling of being close to Michael Burnham, but not knowing why. Burnham will have risen to command of Discovery, a run-of-the-mill science vessel with a run-of-the-mill crew. The leader of Section 31 will be a modified version of the pilot Georgiou.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Again, every single step of the way she was ahead of the borg. Every. Single. Step.

So going back to my original point, seven years in space and all the chaos they went through, culminating in their "perfectly safe" plan against the Borg which really entailed no risk whatsoever is in fact safer than using the 100+ year old Iron Angel suit technology to get home on day zero how?