The No Currency Thing On Earth

[Takeru]

Sigh! It's possible in the vast alien civilizations of Star Trek there maybe a demand for Picard's produce and I'm sure there's something these other civilizations may have which Picard may want. So they negotiate a trade. You know, something Earth civilizations has done since the beginning of society's foundation. If it's good enough in the past, and the present, it's good enough in the future... at a larger scale.

Except barter is a bad system and was never good enough, that's why every society at some point came up with a currency so that you don't have to stuff lawn chairs into your car to trade them for a new dining room carpet. Barter only works on a very small scale, the idea that earth would do away with money and return to bartering is nonsense.

Just look at your example, the Picards are supposed to negotiate for some random stuff as payment for their wine but unless they only sell to people who offer stuff they need and throw away a bunch of their wine they also have to accept stuff they don't need as payment which they of course will keep for more bartering to get the stuff they do need. They have to store all that stuff they don't need somewhere so there's probably a "barter barn" on the property full of candlesticks, foot massage vouchers from Risa, an original painting from an up and coming artist from Mars, sealed salt vampire action figures, antique clown noses and a bunch of other shit Marie has to keep organized to offer when she goes to get whatever isn't for free ... does this sound even remotely sensible?

 

[Tenacity]

They must make a fortune from that half dozen bottles they can make from having 4-5 people working all that land alone.

Except at harvest time why would Picard need more than a few people? Plus he'd need lot's of bare foot locals to stomp the grapes into juice right after harvest.

Great point. I have the answer, it's called bad writing

That's what I attribute the absence of money idea to.

Is the Beverly Crusher example you cited during Encounter at Farpoint? She was interested in the bolt of fabric and 'charged it to the ship'?

No, she charged it to her own account, she said to send it to the ship.

 

[Kor]

And then she promptly disappeared and never paid her tab.

Kor

 

[Tenacity]

And then she promptly disappeared and never paid her tab.

That's why businesses prefer items to be charged, it guarantees payment to the business. the only thing Bev could skip out on is reimburssing her financial institution.

It's possible in the vast alien civilizations of Star Trek there maybe a demand for Picard's produce

Got to scrub those plasma conduits with something

 

[Nakita Akita]

That's why businesses prefer items to be charged, it guarantees payment to the business. the only thing Bev could skip out on is reimburssing her financial institution.Got to scrub those plasma conduits with something

It's a local wine.
Only in and around Picard France.
They drink it with escargot.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Ah. The age-old debate that proves, while Star Trek culture may have a wealth (See what I did there?) of scientists, engineers, and dreamers, it's severely lacking in economists.

 

[Tenacity]

They drink it with escargot.

every christmas, robert picard dresses as father christmas, and rides a sled filled with toys into the village, pulled by eight tiny escargots.

 

[UssGlenn]

The Economy of the future runs on social capital. We are already heading that way. See Social Media Influencers as a real job today. Except in the future complex computer algorithms calculate everyone's contribution to society. Want to sit on your butt and be entertained all day? You get an efficiency apartment in Gary Indiana with a replicator and computer terminal. Do anything productive and earn credits that can be used for better housing, dinner at real restaurants, collecting antiques, anything money is used for today.

How are you being productive? Follow your bliss, the Federation houses and feeds you, you won't starve. Be a crappy artist, a failed lanscape designer, go back to school for the 5th time, start a microbrewery, all that matters is that you are trying. The talented people will be recognized and earn more social capital credits.

Are you smart and have a sense of adventure? Or maybe you just can't generate enough social capital on Earth for your liking. Join Starfleet and live like a king when you retire. Putting your life on the line for others generates a ton of social credits. Your credits go to your next of kin if necessary.

How are credit amounts calculated? No Idea, Jake couldn't explain it either. Does this sound a bit distopian (a computer deciding what you are worth to society)? Sure and I bet lots of people love it. Don't like it? Move to a colony with a more traditional economy.

 

[kkt]

Tough luck for you if your volunteered for Starfleet and had a short career as a redshirt on the Enterprise without even the chance to spend your credits.

 

[Takeru]

The Economy of the future runs on social capital. We are already heading that way. See Social Media Influencers as a real job today. Except in the future complex computer algorithms calculate everyone's contribution to society. Want to sit on your butt and be entertained all day? You get an efficiency apartment in Gary Indiana with a replicator and computer terminal. Do anything productive and earn credits that can be used for better housing, dinner at real restaurants, collecting antiques, anything money is used for today.

How are you being productive? Follow your bliss, the Federation houses and feeds you, you won't starve. Be a crappy artist, a failed lanscape designer, go back to school for the 5th time, start a microbrewery, all that matters is that you are trying. The talented people will be recognized and earn more social capital credits.

Are you smart and have a sense of adventure? Or maybe you just can't generate enough social capital on Earth for your liking. Join Starfleet and live like a king when you retire. Putting your life on the line for others generates a ton of social credits. Your credits go to your next of kin if necessary.

How are credit amounts calculated? No Idea, Jake couldn't explain it either. Does this sound a bit distopian (a computer deciding what you are worth to society)? Sure and I bet lots of people love it. Don't like it? Move to a colony with a more traditional economy.

So the reason they don't have money is that they renamed it credits? Because in your system you just changed how any by whom people are being paid otherwise the economy still runs on paying for things they want with the credits they earned.

 

[UssGlenn]

So the reason they don't have money is that they renamed it credits?

Exactly, Humanity talks a good game but they just got rid of cash and credit cards and said "look at that, we got rid of money, aren't we great". Your account is just linked to biometric data now. Useless to Kirk on a Bus in 1986.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Exactly, Humanity talks a good game but they just got rid of cash and credit cards and said "look at that, we got rid of money, aren't we great". Your account is just linked to biometric data now. Useless to Kirk on a Bus in 1986.

Except, that's not what DS9 "In the Cards" said.

 

[Takeru]

The no money thing is illogical and should be ignored. "But Picard and Jake said ..." Don't care, it's stupid, makes no sense and contradicts many other moments on Star Trek where people clearly used money to pay for things.
The DS9 example is especially bad because the episode seemed to make fun of the concept because the script had Jake say he doesn't have and need money when he obviously needed money which led to an elaborate bartering plot and included comedic scenes of him and Nog giving away Sisko's desk behind his back.

Or look at Voyager, it took them a few weeks in the delta quadrant and they started using replicator rations and holodeck time as currency, the concept is clearly not foreign to them. Federation credits would have been useless in the delta quadrant and unnecessary aboard the ship anyway so they put them aside for the time being.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

A quick copy and paste from the Memory Alpha wikia about money in Trek.


"Money in the 21st century sense was not used on 24th century Earth, as the result of a worldwide economic reorganization in the late 22nd century. The exact nature of the Federation economy was difficult to describe; while money may not have entirely ceased to exist, it did not play the central role in the lives of Federation and Earth citizens that it once did. The descriptions given by various Federation citizens varied:

• During an excursion to 1986-era San Francisco, Kirk told Spock about 20th century Earth, saying, "They're still using money. We need to get some." He then sold eyeglasses that McCoy had given him for $100. Later on, while Kirk was having dinner with Gillian Taylor in a restaurant and was unable to pay there, Gillian asked sarcastically, "Don't tell me they don't use money in the 23rd century," and Kirk earnestly replied, "Well, we don't." (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home)

• In 2364, Jean-Luc Picard tried to explain to Ralph Offenhouse, a financier from the 20th century, that there would be no need for his services any longer. "A lot has changed in three hundred years," said Picard. "People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of 'things.' We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions." (TNG: "The Neutral Zone")

• Julian Bashir once explained that he was unable to accept payment for his services as chief medical officer of Deep Space 9. (DS9: "Body Parts")

• When Lily Sloane asked him how much the USS Enterprise-E cost to build, Picard told her, "The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century... The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity." (Star Trek: First Contact)

• When Nog suggested that Jake should bid for a baseball card in an auction, Jake said, "I'm Human, I don't have any money." Nog commented, "It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement." Jake answered, "Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity." Nog then replied, "What does that mean?" Jake responded, "It means... It means we don't need money!" Nog quickly pointed out, however, that Jake wouldn't be able to bid or borrow. (DS9: "In the Cards")

• Tom Paris said about the significance of Fort Knox, "When the New World Economy took shape in the late 22nd century and money went the way of the dinosaur, Fort Knox was turned into a museum." (VOY: "Dark Frontier")"

I would also say that money still seems to exist in the Kelvin verse. Unless Kirk, Scotty and Uhura going to bars and ordering their drinks was all free as well, somehow. We know Quark only accepts Latinum at his bar. Which all the DS9 officers were comfortable with. Replicated synthol or Kanar, Romulan Ale and Klingon Blood Wine. Hmmm.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

"In the Cards" is just an episode in which Junior does chores to buy a gift for dad. It's not an exploration of the economy of the Federation: the dialogue about not needing money is just a poke at Roddenberry, who himself did not explain what he meant by no money in the future.

That said, "In the Cards" has a certain realism to it. Most of human history has had a dearth of specie, making transactions difficult. As Eugen Weber points out, people in the early 19th century were in some cases using ancient Roman coins in order to make payments. Most of the time, when they had no choice but to pay (such as obligations to the lord), they did so in kind: a mixture of products and labor (grain and road-building, eg).

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Economy of the future runs on social capital. We are already heading that way. See Social Media Influencers as a real job today. Except in the future complex computer algorithms calculate everyone's contribution to society. Want to sit on your butt and be entertained all day? You get an efficiency apartment in Gary Indiana with a replicator and computer terminal. Do anything productive and earn credits that can be used for better housing, dinner at real restaurants, collecting antiques, anything money is used for today.

How are you being productive? Follow your bliss, the Federation houses and feeds you, you won't starve. Be a crappy artist, a failed lanscape designer, go back to school for the 5th time, start a microbrewery, all that matters is that you are trying. The talented people will be recognized and earn more social capital credits.

Are you smart and have a sense of adventure? Or maybe you just can't generate enough social capital on Earth for your liking. Join Starfleet and live like a king when you retire. Putting your life on the line for others generates a ton of social credits. Your credits go to your next of kin if necessary.

How are credit amounts calculated? No Idea, Jake couldn't explain it either. Does this sound a bit distopian (a computer deciding what you are worth to society)? Sure and I bet lots of people love it. Don't like it? Move to a colony with a more traditional economy.

There is no scarcity.

Productivity is irrelevant.

Everyone on Earth is given whatever they want to forward humanity. If they don't forward humanity, it doesn't matter, because the cost of these billions of people not forwarding humanity is insignificant because there is no scarcity on Earth, or on any developed word. Punishing trillions of human beings for being unexceptional is a dick move, when if you give everyone unlimited resources and unlimited space, it's unlikely that the world is going to end in fire.

I doubt that the Picards own the Vineyard, the vines, or the wine they bottle, so no one is going to pay them money that does not exist for wine that belongs to the community.

No one owns anything, and everyone owns everything.

Space communism.

The Picard Chateau (And Sisko's) are heritage museums where the Picard family line (and the Sisko Family line) are facilitators. It's possible that the Picards (and the Siskos) are not even the real Picards (and Siskos). Jean-Luc and Robert's parents had to adopt characters to grind bitter realism into the Museum, and had pretended for long enough that they are the real Picards who had kept a winery running for centuries before a global depression, nuclear war, post apocalypse dark age, and then demonetization, that they forgot that they are not related to the people in the paintings littering the house they are living in, and may have never told their children that their family comes from some where completely different than France, like maybe Britain, because LISTEN TO THE SOUNDS COMING OUT OF THEIR FACES!

Half the creepy mooks in Goofy costumes at 24th century Disney World claim to be direct descendants of Walt Disney, and maybe a couple of them are, but inheriting positions or job titles is against Federation Policy.

 

[UssGlenn]

Except, that's not what DS9 "In the Cards" said.

Jake is young and has only recently been indoctrinated into the evolved humanity/we don't use money club. He gets everything from his father, and is too young to have generated social credits yet, so of course he just parrots the party line back at Nog.

Punishing trillions of human beings for being unexceptional is a dick move, when if you give everyone unlimited resources and unlimited space, it's unlikely that the world is going to end in fire.

The unexeptional people are not being punished. They have it better than paycheck to paycheck people have it today. You just get rewarded for contributing to society. And while there are unlimited resources there is not unlimited space of equal quality, So no matter what there has to be a way to decide who lives where. Scarcity also applies to authenticity (non replicated objects and real world not holodeck experiences.)

 

[XCV330]

So, no one thinks Earth had some sort of advanced form of a barter system???

Humanity has been around in some form or another on Earth for many millenia now. Most of that time was at the hunter gatherer stage and while trade clearly took place, it did not do so at the level that it would rise to during the agrarian revolution.

At this point, with the rise of the cities, increased number of products and services barter as a workable solution simply breaks down. A prostitute in ancient Nineveh may have seen the value in a generous offer of 5 oxen for that one really naughty thing her client was asking for, but really, but where was she going to put them? There were attempts to codify barter but those systems would be inflexible in the matter of supply and demand variance.

Even in the post-Roman dark ages before the rise of a semi-stable feudal system, nations and remnants of empires were still issuing coin because commerce had to keep going. Tribal systems can get away without it. The early Angle and Saxon invaders of Britain seemed to at first use coins they looted as buttons and other improvised jewelry. (the same way Tlingit used Chinese cash coins as improvised mail armor) But within a few generations they were issuing their own coins, and not as jewelry. Money is too useful an idea to drop once you get settled in.

Essentially almost everyone understands there must be a medium of exchange to get those little things that your UFP Benefits Card won't provide. And since Star Trek has shown inherited property including land repeatedly (and honestly, yes I get the usual suspects will perform the usual mental acrobatics to show how that could be anything. I swear if i mention that Kirk held a phaser I will see a 12 paragraph reply on how that very well may have been a kazoo, we just don't know for sure) there has to be a medium of exchange. It's obviously not based on a gold standard, and doesn't appear to be connected to monetary systems of the past. For whatever reason they chose not to call it money, but it must have some kind of exchange rate to other systems or they couldn't be buying things from Ferengi, Naussicaans etc.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Jake is young and has only recently been indoctrinated into the evolved humanity/we don't use money club. He gets everything from his father, and is too young to have generated social credits yet, so of course he just parrots the party line back at Nog.

Yeah, that's not what it says either.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Even in the post-Roman dark ages before the rise of a semi-stable feudal system, nations and remnants of empires were still issuing coin because commerce had to keep going.

Not as much as you think. Roman coins were still be used in some areas well into the modern age.