Spoilers Do you think the original main arc was scrapped once Berg/Harberts left?

[Jackson_Roykirk]

"God" exists in the Trek universe. It's always an alien being or computer disguised as "god", and it may or may not require a starship.

At the end of the TOS episode Bread and Circuses, Uhura pointed out at the end that the slaves on that planet were not Pagan "Sun" worshipers, but rather they were Christian-analogous followers of the "Son" of their god.

Of course, Uhura's line in that episode wasn't about of whether or not God exists, but instead it touched upon the faith of the people of that planet. That planet's "Son worshipers" faith in a son of god was a real part of their lives, even if it happens to turn out that their god is not real.

Most Star Treks that dealt with religion or God did so using this approach of not overtly attempting to answer the question of whether or not a supreme being exists. Instead, it attempted to look at it from the philosophical side of studying the idea of human (or alien) faith itself -- i.e., the "human" side of faith and/or religion.

Faith and religion are real things that exist in our world whether or not a supreme being exists. I think episodes that explore faith in a respectful manner are worthy of Star Trek inasmuch as it is an exploration of the Human Condition -- something that Star Trek has often excelled at.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Okay, okay - I'll acknowledge it might not be the WORST, and I might just feel that way because it's fresher and I'm still more irritated about it.

Still, it was a *terrible* frikkin' episode.

 

[fireproof78]

Allamaraine, count to four, allamaraine, it really wasn't.

Yeah, that list could be a lot longer:

 

[Ovation]

Yeah, that list could be a lot longer:

AHHAGGGHHH!!!!! MY EYES!!! MY EYES!!!!!

 

[Longinus]

Yeah, I can't take seriously after the list you made.

It might have been a tad hyperbolic, but it certainly was a shit episode. Clearly the worst episode of this season, no contest.

 

[cultcross]

Yeah, that list could be a lot longer:

I'm now imagining making one episode featuring all of treks worst ideas. Quark in drag having sex with a ghost candle at warp ten while Spock's brain is inserted into the body of a guest star wrestler and he has to fight a man in blackface for possession of Tasha. It'll be a hologram training programme at the end where Riker had to make a decision during Shades of Grey.

 

[Alan Roi]

Regarding the thread title question: I don't know. But what I do know is that their last episode was hands down the WORST freaking episode of Star Trek *ever*. And I'm including "Spock's Brain" (which was meant to be funny), "Threshold" (which was just super lazy), "Code of Honor" (which was racist, but let's face it, sometimes things really happen that make it seem like racists *might* have a point, or they'd never gain new adherents to their ignorant racist ideas, and they sadly do, so...), "These Are The Voyages" (SUCKED, but in their defense, let's see you wrap up a show at the end of 4th season when you thought 7 was a given), or "Shades of Grey" (seasons with that many episodes were just too long).

The whole episode was S T U P I D, but in a richly thought-out way that almost felt like it was not only stupid but that a great deal of effort had gone into making it so. I wanted Culber back, but they could have gone with less deus ex machina, or, if they were going that way, they could have gone full tilt that way and at least given us the wicked cool visual of Culber coming back from the Upside-Down all "Take On Me" style.

And beginning almost immediately after, we have some of what I consider the best Trek, period. So if that's the result of them being out, good for it.

Ah, hyperobole as entertainment. Its statements like this that really do make me chuckle. Its amazing the lengths people will go anywhere to overcook their point into charcoal.

And, yeah. No. No. Sure. Yes, but yeah I could. No. What?! ...

 

[USS Triumphant]

the body of a guest star wrestler

You know, I showed that episode to my daughter a couple of years ago, as part of a short tour of episodes demonstrating why Voyager was awful. I was surprised as how *good* that episode actually was. I mean, it wasn't a work of great art or anything, but it was decent Trek, and aside from the gimmicky inclusion of the People's eyebrow, Dwayne Johnson did a good job, too.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

I'm not a religious man, and I don't think it is a stupid question.

I agree. I also think a lot of people are here are taking a narrow view of what the word faith means when claiming the stated theme has been dropped. Faith doesn't necessarily equate to religion. You can have faith in your own, or someone else's instincts when not in possession of all the facts, and faith that someone else might be there to help you when needed. When those are taken into account, I think many of the recent episodes still fit into those themes.

Therefore, I voted no. I think they've probably stuck quite closely to what was originally planned out early in the season.

 

[fireproof78]

It might have been a tad hyperbolic, but it certainly was a shit episode. Clearly the worst episode of this season, no contest.

Not disagreeing, especially with hints of Temporal Cold War style arms race mumbo-jumbo. But "worst eva!?" Not by a long shot by my reckoning, at least. YMMV.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

I'm now imagining making one episode featuring all of treks worst ideas. Quark in drag having sex with a ghost candle at warp ten while Spock's brain is inserted into the body of a guest star wrestler and he has to fight a man in blackface for possession of Tasha. It'll be a hologram training programme at the end where Riker had to make a decision during Shades of Grey.

Crackfic challenge accepted!

 

[plynch]

But, even within religion, there is interpretation. No matter what, it is not nearly as unified as often portrayed in Hollywood.

A great many people just in Christianity do not interpret many things literally. Though many do, too.

My denomination is likely to split over how literally to interpret certain passages about sexuality.

And we ("United" Methodism) are juts one part of a strain that is an offshoot of Anglicanism, an offshoot of Catholicism, an offshoot of Orthodoxy.

It is very disunited, but the literalists get more of the press.

 

[Longinus]

I agree. I also think a lot of people are here are taking a narrow view of what the word faith means when claiming the stated theme has been dropped. Faith doesn't necessarily equate to religion. You can have faith in your own, or someone else's instincts when not in possession of all the facts, and faith that someone else might be there to help you when needed. When those are taken into account, I think many of the recent episodes still fit into those themes.

You mean like having faith of the heart?

 

[fireproof78]

A great many people just in Christianity do not interpret many things literally. Though many do, too.

My denomination is likely to split over how literally to interpret certain passages about sexuality.

And we ("United" Methodism) are juts one part of a strain that is an offshoot of Anglicanism, an offshoot of Catholicism, an offshoot of Orthodoxy.

It is very disunited, but the literalists get more of the press.

Unfortunately, things in the extremes often get more press and, in Hollywood that means drama. So, it gets the views.

 

[Ovation]

You mean like having faith of the heart?

I hear the road to get there can be very long.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

You mean like having faith of the heart?

Well, Discovery is the first starfleet ship we know of that really can reach any star...

But, yeah. That kind of thing. But, even if the religious aspect is taken on, as recently as Sound of Thunder, we've had a challenge of a religion- it just happens to be the Kepiens' rather than one of our own.

 

[eschaton]

It still seems way more coherent to me than the first season.

Yeah, Season 2 as a whole does feel much more coherent than Season 1. That said, in Season 1 it seemed sort of like losing the plot thread was sort of an organic process. Like they drifted away from Fuller's original intent very early, and just kept adding to the season arc as they went along. Then, when they got to the end, they realized that where the season was going bore no resemblance to the themes in the opening arc, so they hastily put the season finale together.

In contrast, this season, the first five episodes seemed like they were heading towards a coherent arc. And the show's more recent episodes also seem coherent. It's just the transition from the beginning of the season to now is very jarring.

Including Adult Spock is a change for the better. Normally, you'd think Spock would be aboard the Enterprise. To have him conveniently missing when Discovery encounters the Enterprise is too convenient. Alex Kurtzman managed to fix it by having Spock have a mental crisis because of the Red Angels. They reached him like V'Ger did. They made lemonade out of a lemon by not having Spock around. "Oh! He's just on leave." Right...

Although some of the early promo interviews suggested we'd only see baby Spock in flashback, I think this was abandoned pretty early on. After all, we hear Peck's voice in New Eden. Thus he already must have been cast by the time filming of the series began.

Regarding the thread title question: I don't know. But what I do know is that their last episode was hands down the WORST freaking episode of Star Trek *ever*. And I'm including "Spock's Brain" (which was meant to be funny), "Threshold" (which was just super lazy), "Code of Honor" (which was racist, but let's face it, sometimes things really happen that make it seem like racists *might* have a point, or they'd never gain new adherents to their ignorant racist ideas, and they sadly do, so...), "These Are The Voyages" (SUCKED, but in their defense, let's see you wrap up a show at the end of 4th season when you thought 7 was a given), or "Shades of Grey" (seasons with that many episodes were just too long).

The whole episode was S T U P I D, but in a richly thought-out way that almost felt like it was not only stupid but that a great deal of effort had gone into making it so. I wanted Culber back, but they could have gone with less deus ex machina, or, if they were going that way, they could have gone full tilt that way and at least given us the wicked cool visual of Culber coming back from the Upside-Down all "Take On Me" style.

And beginning almost immediately after, we have some of what I consider the best Trek, period. So if that's the result of them being out, good for it.

I didn't feel as negatively towards that episode (though it wasn't one of my favorites this season, not my a long shot). Still, it's interesting to note that episode was a great example of Discovery's former fascination with woo - which has now seemingly evaporated for a more typical Trekkian materialistic view of the universe. I mean, they didn't really have SFnal experience, but had worked on "magical realist" type shows like Wonderfalls and Pushing Daisies. It seemed like that was the kind of plot they were comfortable with, and they were certainly even last season pushing the mycelial network in that direction.

I'm now imagining making one episode featuring all of treks worst ideas. Quark in drag having sex with a ghost candle at warp ten while Spock's brain is inserted into the body of a guest star wrestler and he has to fight a man in blackface for possession of Tasha. It'll be a hologram training programme at the end where Riker had to make a decision during Shades of Grey.

Naah, way easier than that. Basically a Shades of Gray style clip show, where Q decides to torment a character (let's say Neelix, for whatever reason) by forcing him to relive clips from all of those episodes.

 

[Tuskin38]

Thus he already must have been cast by the time filming of the series began.

Not necessarily, that could have been part of a reshoot, or they might have originally planned to have a soundalike,

 

[Mudd]

Although some of the early promo interviews suggested we'd only see baby Spock in flashback, I think this was abandoned pretty early on. After all, we hear Peck's voice in New Eden. Thus he already must have been cast by the time filming of the series began.

No. Sound work is completed in post-production, weeks or months after a show is shot. If Spock's voice-over is inextricable from the scene in which it appears (I didn't see the show), anyone could have performed it off-camera or otherwise provided the cue for the actors to respond to. Depending upon the scene in which the voice-over appears, the entire scene or relevant shots could have been added weeks - or months - after the episode had wrapped principle photography. So, in many cases (depending upon the script) Spock could have been retrofit into the episode long after it was finished.

For an example of the latter (I did see the season opener), the scene in which Burnham and Pike discuss Spock's absence, and the scene where she visits Spock's quarters aboard the Enterprise, could have been shot and added to the show weeks or months after it was shot.

Given the information at places like TrekMovie, it should not be difficult to determine approximately how long after "New Eden" Peck was cast.

ETA: Production on season two of the show began in mid-April; "New Eden" was the second episode. Peck was not cast until August. So, whether adult Spock was added to the scripts later or not, Peck was certainly not doing voice-over or any other work on "New Eden" when it was being shot.

 

[Tuskin38]

Correct if I'm wrong, but I don't think Kurtzman ever personally said Spock wouldn't be in Season 2, it was Berg and Herbets.

As soon as they were gone, suddenly we have (Adult) Spock.