Supergirl - Season Four

[Ovation]

IIRC (it’s been a while since I taught early US republic history and I’m too lazy to check), the main reason for the restriction of “native born” for US president was to block Alexander Hamilton from the office. He was born in the Caribbean, not one of “the Thirteen”, so was made ineligible by this rule.

There were other stated reasons (no one officially copped to blocking Hamilton) but keeping him out was a big part of it.

It is a rather silly restriction to maintain.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I see Marsdin as a good person who did a bad thing. But good intentions aren't enough to just be excused in such a important job as being President of the United States.

..not where national security is involved. "Good intentions" from one who deceived not only Americans--but the world--is not what a nation should rest its security and future on. Its laughable (and desperate in the ideological sense) to think anyone would argue in favor of an extraterrestrial with loyalties born from another species/world sitting in the seat of the most powerful person on earth.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

IIRC (it’s been a while since I taught early US republic history and I’m too lazy to check), the main reason for the restriction of “native born” for US president was to block Alexander Hamilton from the office. He was born in the Caribbean, not one of “the Thirteen”, so was made ineligible by this rule.

There were other stated reasons (no one officially copped to blocking Hamilton) but keeping him out was a big part of it.

It is a rather silly restriction to maintain.

It seems rather unlikely that the Constitution was intended to exclude Hamilton from the Presidency, since anyone who was already a citizen of the United States when the Constitution was ratified was explicitly not required to meet the natural born citizenship criterion to be President. Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the US Constitution says:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.​

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States_of_America

The 14 year residency and age requirements being met by 1790, the only question is then whether Hamilton was a citizen of New York by the time the Constitution was ratified (it seems like he was).

 

[Ovation]

It seems rather unlikely that the Constitution was intended to exclude Hamilton from the Presidency, since anyone who was already a citizen of the United States when the Constitution was ratified was explicitly not required to meet the natural born citizenship criterion to be President. Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the US Constitution says:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.​

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States_of_America

The 14 year residency and age requirements being met by 1790, the only question is then whether Hamilton was a citizen of New York by the time the Constitution was ratified (it seems like he was).

I stand corrected.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hamilton had not been a resident of America for 14 years when the constitution was signed.

(Birthyear) 1755 or 1757 plus 13 years to 19 years (he left for New York as a teen) so he began his residency in America somewhere between 1768 and 1776.

Which falls short of the 14 year requirement, to ignore the naturally born necessity.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

He didn't have to be a resident for 14 years when the Constitution was ratified (adopted), only a citizen. By the time he was 35 in 1790, he had been, though.

 

[Jayson1]

Precisely. She was a good president who did one dishonest thing. That makes her flawed, but it doesn't make her a monster, and it doesn't make it her fault that hate groups are on the rise.



I have not, at any point, been talking about the reactions of the imaginary people in the show. I've been talking about the reactions of us, the TV viewers here in the real world. We do know that her intentions are noble, that she's an essentially good person who made just one serious error in judgment, so there's no reason for us to damn her as some kind of pathological liar or criminal mastermind when we know better.




I don't think that makes sense for someone who's lived here since childhood, as I think Marsdin has. Anyone who moved here before, say, age 5 or 6 would have little or no memory of being anything but an American. So I think it's too strict a standard.

Besides, there have been plenty of natural-born American citizens who've been more loyal to other countries for various reasons, just as there are plenty of immigrants who come here because they renounced any loyalty to their homelands. So as a loyalty filter, it's far from perfect.

I was just assuming most people weren't harshly judging the character but looking more from a in universe sense. I mean it is just fiction so one has to sort of run with that. I do think it would be more interesting if some of these doubts were expressed on the show and not just in fandom but I kind of understand that maybe "Supergirl" just isn't that show. It's more about positive messaging than trying to be accurate to how this stuff would really play out if all of his stuff was real. I would be more upset I think if maybe "West Wing" kind of hand waved this stuff than I am for this kind of show. Still it is kind of fun to talk about.


Jason

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Supergirl
Season 4 / episode 15- "O Brother, Where Art Thou?"

SG/Kara: Alex said James is Kara's best friend. I cannot recall the last time that was acknowledged--or presented in a way that supports Alex's statement.

Once again, episode 14's "I should have dealt with the Elite when I had the chance." screams like a fire engine siren because both SG and J'onn treated mass murderers with kid gloves, so they are responsible for Manchester's continued murderous mayhem.

Yes, Alex calling out Kara for not being by Olsen's side only happened because of her memory wipe, but she (Alex) did have a point.

James / Kelly: So, Lex had Eve shoot James. I thought her behavior was too shady over the past couple of episodes. This means she was a Lex plant at Catco from the start.

I'm hoping the in the wake of Lena's cure, James does not resent the treatment or Lena for his upgrade, which he might consider an act to support her underestimating him as a regular human earlier this season.

A little bit of backstory when Kelly mentions how many terrible things the Luthors did to James.

J'onn: All of his turmoil could have been avoided if he had the moral clarity to "bury" Manchester Black under the prison the second he encountered him after his escape, instead of thinking he was ever capable of redemption. But this plot device only exists because the showrunners use Manchester Black as their proxy for their feelings about the other side of the immigration issue.

Menagerie / Manchester Black & Company: He's utterly despicable, and that's in an episode featuring Lex Luthor.

Lex / Lena: So, Lena once found her brother's red sun solution horrifying, yet she eventually came around to thinking humanity needed a superhuman upgrade. This explains why early on, she invented/weaponized Kryptonite.

"..the President whose strings you're pulling." That's one question answered (somewhat) about recent actions from the White House.

"You will always fall into the light..." was Lex's observation about Lena. We will see about that.

So, Lex was the one the Russians contacted about Comrade Kara. With his connection to the President, there's no telling how Comrade Kara will be used (beyond the attempt to kill Supegirl).

Nia / Brainy: Interesting--Nia did not have a dream/premonition about the attack on James, but cannot explain why.

Brainy's "...and Mon El? Well he was always a bit dismissive! Microaggressions that their own form of trauma!!." Interesting. So they were not as chummy as audiences were led to believe, only adding to his dickhead-ish behavior.

Other than some unexplained knowledge about Nia's future, one wonders why he really poured cold water on the idea of having a relationship with Nia.

NOTES: Before this aired, I wondered if James would play some real part of the story--that his plight points to another development down the line (this season), such as his really becoming a superhero. I would hope he does not overreach in a crisis situation (e.g. Comrade Kara) and get himself killed.

Lex still calls James "Jimmy." Not an ounce of respect for Superman's Pal.

Dam FX: pretty good.

GRADE: A-. Solid episode with the exception of the Manchester Black subplot.

 

[The Realist]

Well, that was just great. Everything worked, including both the writing for Lex and Cryer's performance. And that ending! Can't wait to see where we go from here.

 

[thribs]

Just finished it. Looks like they’re going with a hybrid version of both silver age and modern age versions. Shame they didn’t call in Superman though. Would make it more exciting

Also, how shocking was it to see that Tessmacher was working for him? Not really.

 

[Christopher]

Cryer was actually pretty good as Lex, it turns out. And it was an interesting portrayal, very much in character for Lex -- aside from a couple of inexplicable gaffes in his opening scene, saying Epicurus was "230 years old" instead of 2300, and saying "dispel the world of the notion," which is not how "dispel" works. (You dispel a notion; you disabuse people of a notion.)

Even Lex's softer side, his respect and kindness for Lena alongside the utter malevolence, is in character if you go back far enough. When Lena was introduced in the Silver Age, she was a pure innocent, and Lex's one decent impulse was to make sure she always stayed that way, that her purity was never tainted by his evil.

Unfortunately, Lex's supposedly brilliantly devious evil plan was pretty easy to figure out -- I had it pegged by the first act break that Lex had had James shot in order to force Lena's hand on testing the Harun'el serum. Well, I guess the characters were too distraught to think clearly.

It's hard to believe they're ending Manchester Black's story here. I have to wonder if there was more to his apparent death than met the eye. At least Brainy has his ring back.

 

[thribs]

That scene at the dam is the same place Clark fought Bizarro in Smallville

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Just finished it. Looks like they’re going with a hybrid version of both silver age and modern age versions. Shame they didn’t call in Superman though. Would make it more exciting

Perhaps someone will contact him when Comrade Kara and Luthor are too much to handle.

Also, how shocking was it to see that Tessmacher was working for him? Not really.

No, not really.

 

[thribs]

Perhaps someone will contact him when Comrade Kara and Luthor are too much to handle.

Surprised they didn't try and contact him when Jimmy was shot. He's his best friend after all.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Surprised they didn't try and contact him when Jimmy was shot. He's his best friend after all.

Very good point. Anyone would be pissed if they were left in the dark about their friend nearly losing his life.

The James plot demands Superman visiting him before the end of the season, and Kara to have more than a couple of seconds with James, since Alex pointed out that he's her best friend, too.

 

[Charles Phipps]

* So, we're all in agreement that Manchester Black is impersonating J'onn, right? He has the holographic technology of the Fortress of Solitude and the disintegration device. I don't think Jonn is dead but Manchester Black was the one speaking his "I am not a man of peace" speech.

* I loved Cryer's Lex Luthor because he's very Silver Age and acting like a cartoon supervillain but the consequences of his actions are real. It's like John Simm's Master to a somewhat more subdued sense and I LOVED John Simm's Master.

* I think most of us saw a lot of the twists coming but that's because we're all familiar with Lex Luthor and his schemes. Lena was also smart enough to see through his scheme but missed the fact that someone she trusted would betray her.

* I called Tessmacher being evil when she suddenly revealed she was a scientist. I'm also sure she was the one to shoot Jimmy.

* I kind of wish she was Mercy Graves under the Inducer. That way she could tell Supergirl that she had sex with her boyfriend.

* So is the cure also something that gives Superpowers? I don't think so but it annoys me because Jimmy really could have used a super soldier serum upgrade.

* I love how Lex and Lena can bond over how much they hate their mother. Even if Lex is way way too old to be Lilian's daughter (we can blame the Kryptonite cancer I guess).

If it were most anything else in the Constitution, if it were something that actually mattered beyond simple legalism, I'd agree with you. But I can't see any good reason to disqualify someone for the office based on not being born here, and 9 or more years of Birther attacks on President Obama have deeply soured me on any attempt to use national origin as an excuse for attacking a US President's legitimacy.

I think it's a strange thing to bring up because the whole thing about Birtherism is that Obama was NOT guilty of it and the only reason anyone accused him of such was because the people making the accusation were racist idiots. It's a very serious pair of crimes, perjury and fraud, that Marsden was guilty of.

I love Marsden and think she's awesome. But it's because she made a serious error that her character is enriched by the experience.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

* So, we're all in agreement that Manchester Black is impersonating J'onn, right? He has the holographic technology of the Fortress of Solitude and the disintegration device. I don't think Jonn is dead but Manchester Black was the one speaking his "I am not a man of peace" speech.

If that's the case, I hope the showrunners d not drag this out. Manchester Black should have been old news some time ago.

So is the cure also something that gives Superpowers? I don't think so but it annoys me because Jimmy really could have used a super soldier serum upgrade.

I see him not liking it because he always felt he should be able to make a stand without powers, and if you recall, got into an argument with Lena about that very thing.

I think it's a strange thing to bring up because the whole thing about Birtherism is that Obama was NOT guilty of it and the only reason anyone accused him of such was because the people making the accusation were racist idiots. It's a very serious pair of crimes, perjury and fraud, that Marsden was guilty of.

I love Marsden and think she's awesome. But it's because she made a serious error that her character is enriched by the experience.

It was a poor comparison--and as noted before desperate to say anything in support of the showrunners' immigrations views. As you point out, Obama was not the Kenyan of racist ideologues' fantasies, but Marsden was in fact an extraterrestrial who used deception (AKA breaking the law) to work her way into the most powerful position on earth. There is no comparison, but when one is shaking at the foundation to defend this series' truth-free immigration position, in comes inapplicable comparisons.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Some thoughts--I thought Cryer did a good job, and I was a bit surprised that Lex was written somewhat in character. Given the sexism and racism of the show's writers, I was expecting Lex to be treated as Lena's inferior and bow down to her as her submissive, like Superman did to Kara. Yes, he did make the comment about Kryptonite, but I couldn't expect the writers not at least have a little of that.

However, as a whole, Lex actually came off somewhat formidable. Of course, Clark actually was written like Superman in the first appearance, before the writers decided to weaken Superman to make Supergirl look stronger. Hopefully they won't do the same with Lex.

I think it's a strange thing to bring up because the whole thing about Birtherism is that Obama was NOT guilty of it and the only reason anyone accused him of such was because the people making the accusation were racist idiots. It's a very serious pair of crimes, perjury and fraud, that Marsden was guilty of.

It could also have something to do with the fact that he refused to produce a real birth certificate for a long time. He fed the flames, as a means of getting his base to cry racism. It clearly worked for him.

Very good point. Anyone would be pissed if they were left in the dark about their friend nearly losing his life.

Very good point. Anyone would be pissed if they were left in the dark about their friend nearly losing his life.

The James plot demands Superman visiting him before the end of the season, and Kara to have more than a couple of seconds with James, since Alex pointed out that he's her best friend, too.

Because the writers clearly do not care about Superman at all, and just want to use him as a prop to make Supergirl look strong by making him look weak. They have done nothing but devalue Superman on this show ever since his second appearance. Let's not forget the writers wrote the lines, "the world doesn't need a Superman when it has a Supergirl." There is no line that proves their feelings toward Superman any better than that one.

 

[Christopher]

* So, we're all in agreement that Manchester Black is impersonating J'onn, right? He has the holographic technology of the Fortress of Solitude and the disintegration device. I don't think Jonn is dead but Manchester Black was the one speaking his "I am not a man of peace" speech.

Hadn't occurred to me, but I guess it's possible.

* I called Tessmacher being evil when she suddenly revealed she was a scientist. I'm also sure she was the one to shoot Jimmy.

I did think it was odd when Eve turned out to be secretly a genius, but I figured it was just a clumsy plot device to enlarge the role of a popular supporting player at a time when the show was spending less time at CatCo. I am a little disappointed that she's evil, though, because it's just going the obvious route based on her name.

By the way, it's spelled Teschmacher.

* So is the cure also something that gives Superpowers? I don't think so but it annoys me because Jimmy really could have used a super soldier serum upgrade.

According to Lena's dialogue, the superpowers were what made it lethal (because the human body couldn't take the power surge, though tell that to all the metahumans in Central City), so she had to separate out the powers from the healing to make it work. So presumably no Super-James or Super-Lex.

* I love how Lex and Lena can bond over how much they hate their mother. Even if Lex is way way too old to be Lilian's daughter (we can blame the Kryptonite cancer I guess).

The flashbacks in an earlier season showed Lex as a teenager maybe 10-12 years older than Lena when she came to live with the Luthors. So yeah, Lex should be younger than he looks.

I think it's a strange thing to bring up because the whole thing about Birtherism is that Obama was NOT guilty of it and the only reason anyone accused him of such was because the people making the accusation were racist idiots. It's a very serious pair of crimes, perjury and fraud, that Marsden was guilty of.

I explained that days ago, but you refuse to listen. It's not about whether it's objectively true or false, it's about whether you treat someone's place of birth as something that matters in the first place.

Some laws are arbitrary. Some laws encode prejudice and perpetuate inbuilt injustices. So not every act of lawbreaking is equally worthy of condemnation. I would get angry if someone broke the law against murder or sexual assault, but I would not get angry if they broke a law against smoking weed or engaging consensually in sex work, say. Whether they broke the law is not the question. Whether breaking that law makes them a bad person is the question.

There used to be laws against homosexuality. There still are in many countries. If a gay man lied about his orientation in order to get a job that no openly gay man could legally hold, which is more worthy of condemnation: The man who broke the law, or the system that made his identity illegal in the first place?

 

[Romulan_spy]

I loved Lex's escape at the end. It was a wonderful nod to Gene Hackman's Lex from the Christopher Reeve Superman movies. it had everything: Lex shouting "Miss Teschmacher", the henchmen, the classical music as the mansion's defenses mow down the police and the final helo escape only to have Supergirl fly in like Superman. Classic!

Jon Cryer did a great job as Lex. He combined the right amount of menace when appropriate, anger and hate towards Superman, but a softness towards Lena that was disarming, only to show his true character in the end, with a little splash of Hackman's Lex. My only regret is that Superman is not there to take him down. Lex is a Superman villain after all. It would be only fitting for Superman to put him away again! Although, I am sure Kara will do her cousin proud.