Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x08 - "If Memory Serves"

No, that was just one of the many, many different names for the Enterprise's operating authority. They hadn't yet decided on plain old "Starfleet" so they tried out a lot of names - UESPA, Space Command, Star Service, Space Central, Starfleet Control...then just whittled it down to Starfleet.

 

Mr. Shatner should have this put on his tombstone...

WILLIAM R. T. SHATNER


Just to fuk with Trek Fandom for all Eternity!

 

They said she was entering the very edge of the Forge. That said, yeah, I thought it was a bit TOO green - one hell of an Oasis the Forge has at the edge.

The episode "The Cage" was aired by many stations back during the Star Trek 25th anniversary in 1991; and it has been part of the TOS syndication package for nearly 15 years now (ever since they went to the TOS-R versions on the syndication package) - so the episode itself has aired; it just never aired during the original NBC network run beyond what was shown in TOS S1 "The Menagerie I & II". Also, the majority of scenes used in the ST: D TOS flashback sequence DID air as part of "The Menagerie I & II".

And Star Trek canon contradicts itself all the time in every Trek franchise series PLUS the various feature films.

 

You lost me at "novels"

 

UESPA may not be the same agency as Starfleet. Before the UFP it may have been part of Earth Starfleet as it's shown that Starfleet Command and UESPA are connected in ENT, but it seems as if some starfleet ships still operate under its authority.

 

I swear when she was shown to Michael as disfigured and she was explaining it, she sounded very close to Susan Oliver when she explained it to Hunter.

 

I’ve wanted to post several times during this second season but E08 kind of broke me. Despite the incredible level of conformity to praising and gushing on these Discovery episode threads, I feel compelled to state my opinions. I’m sure it’s all been said before. But really what hasn’t? I took some notes while watching E08 so here goes:


General Critiques of Disco That Are Very Present in E08:

Burnham - this Mary Sue character has ONE facial expression. Sadness, love, anger, amazement, humor, horniness, confusion - all just the one face. And my god is the unnatural, preachy, manufactured dialog getting tired. Does anyone on this forum know a single person who talks like she does? Honestly. If someone talked like her in real life you would think they had a brain problem. They have blown 75% of the character development of the show on this irritating, ridiculous character. The rest was put into Lorca who they killed off, and Saru, whose ‘development’ is just that he’s an asshole now. Meanwhile the other characters are just... there. The one bridge lady lost her eye – I guess that’s her character development. Michael is such a waste of airtime.

“Member Star Trek!??” – CBS had/has two choices: make a completely new show with minimal references to previous Trek to build a fan base of a totally new thing - just like was done in the 60s. The other option is a minimal-risk fan service show that exists to please current fans. This show manages to do neither. Fans of the TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT format will find little to nothing familiar in this show. And yet the ‘member?’ plots and characters are relentless. At no point am I convinced that this Let It Be-era McCartney actor is Spock. Nope. Sarek? Nada. (Even though I like that actor.) Remember the Enterprise?? That felt comedic. Do you remember Talos IV?? Do you remember captain Pike? Do you remember Section 31?? Enough already! If you’re going to ape previous Trek that’s FINE - but the minimum requirement should be that it’s good. And this ain’t.

Coincidences – This show has some coincidences that are really stupid, but they’re so front and center that sometimes I forget about them.

Ø Michael Burnham is Spock’s sister, so Spock, Amanda, and Sarek are all here. Why couldn’t her family be ANY OTHER FAMILY? Remember Spock? Do you remember Mr. Spock from Star Trek??

Ø Captain Pike took over the Discovery. Remember him? From TOS? It couldn’t have been ANY OTHER CAPTAIN in the fleet. Remember the Enterprise?

Ø Section 31 is an antagonist this season. And their up and coming officer is someone from the MIRROR UNIVERSE, who was a known character from Prime universe who was Burnham’s captain. Couldn’t have been any other organization and the officer couldn’t have been from anywhere else. Remember Section 31? Remember the Mirror Universe?

Ø Harry Mudd was in prison with a main character. Of course. What are the odds on that? HARRY MUDD, people.


Specific Critiques of This Episode:

“Jokes” - The “say goodbye Spock” joke is something my 8-year old nephew would say to try to be clever. It’s kind of funny when a child does it. But a Vulcan adult making that joke in a serious scene feels stupid. Perhaps that's the point - to be stupid? Or did the Talosians think that Spock was actually not familiar with the practice of addressing another person by name? Or is this one of those ‘classic Talosian jokes’ we hear so much about? Either way it’s a cheap laugh at the wrong time and it was pitiful. And speaking of laughs, this show has none. The only ‘comedy’ in it other than laughing AT it so far has been Tilly turning up the shoehorned awkwardness to 11 and that one green guy blowing snot onto someone. I realize that the show isn’t comedy, but come on. Every show had characters whose wit and humor were genuinely funny at least some of the time: Quark/Odo/Rom/Dax, Data/Worf, Spock/McCoy, Paris/The Doctor, hell even hillbilly asswipe Tucker made me laugh a few times. I should be suspending my disbelief about transporters and warp drives, not about comedy.

The Beard – I thought the beard was dumb from the second I saw it in the trailer as the attempt at “differently the same” that it is. The show itself even mocked the beard, taking an unfortunate cue from Starlord’s ‘ballsack chin’ comment to Thanos in that one Marvel movie. The beard of course looked ridiculous but rather than take their own idea seriously they attempted to be “in on the joke” by having Michael mock it. I realize this beard critique is a petty and minor point but it illustrates a sad reality. CBS is terrified of doing something *completely* different so rather than do something off the wall and new they just make cosmetic changes to pre-existing content and spin it off as bold and innovative. Throw in some garbage moralistic dialog and a few million in CGI and you’re all set. I wonder how these things are decided at CBS? “Can’t have a new, cool character for this generation of fans to enjoy. That’s too risky. It has to be *the most iconic Trek character ever* that’s the main drive of this season - but we can’t come off as desperate so he’ll have facial hair. That way he’s different now. And he’ll have 2 lines of dialog in the whole season, but the season will somehow revolve around him. And he’s disabled. And he has a secret sister who will be the main character. And we won’t mention his not-secret brother. See? Cool!” To me it comes off as cynical and desperate. Compare the buildup and execution of the Dominion War in DS9 to the Klingon war in season one of DSC. One just looks rushed, desperate, and amateurish next to the other.

Dutch Angles – FFS enough! And none of this “but, but the awkward and visually ugly camera angles are an analogy for Spock’s disheveled brain” or “the camera feels lost because Michael feels lost”. Bullshit, people. Did a film school student direct these shots? “Try spinning, that’s a good trick!”

I only watched this episode once and maybe I’m confused, but since when to Talosians get off on seeing people remember their suffering? And more importantly, how did they know that Michael/Spock had a bad memory of a fight between them? Wouldn’t they have had to read their minds to know that? And if they already read that memory then why do they ask to read it? I don’t get how they knew about that memory. And why is that the price for psychiatric care? Why are they the only ones who can help Spock? What about Vulcan doctors? How does Spock know that they can help him with red angel-induced dementia? Have they seen the red angel too? Why would they risk their own destruction to help Spock who they met once for 5 minutes? Why is Spock dyslexic now? He didn’t need to be dyslexic to explain his memory loss or rambling or mental confusion. Why is every person in the show casually willing to commit a felony by harboring a fugitive? How did Section 31 know that Spock knew details about the future of the galaxy? Did they probe his brain? Why did they need to probe his brain again? Why does the turbo lift look like the door vault from Monsters Inc. now?

Opening “Cage” Recap – My god. Where to even start. A crappy-looking and sounding SD transfer of a 50 year old Star Trek episode to sloppily tie in the ‘plot’ of a Discovery episode with the TOS pilot? Who thought this was a good idea? It felt anachronistic and shoehorned and silly. And those transitions? Was this supposed to feel like a mid-2000s Powerpoint presentation? The recap that they gave explained NOTHING to someone who isn’t already familiar with the Cage. It was a jumbled mess. Did someone think it was cool, cuz it’s not. It’s sad. I incredulously said out loud “what… is this trash?” when I saw it.

I thought Spock was the first Vulcan to enlist in Starfleet – so who’s that Vulcan admiral? http://www.startrek.com/database_article/spock

I’ll admit I’m not the smartest person around. I’m no genius and I’ve only watched the show one time. But I *STILL* do not understand what Voq/Ash is. Saru seemed to say in this episode that he’s a Klingon grafted onto human bones… but I thought it was exactly the opposite? I thought he was a Klingon who had human DNA granted onto him to fool Starfleet. So was there ever an Ash? Whose memories are the Ash memories? Are Voq’s memories still in there? I’m not being facetious, I truly don’t understand exactly how this works. Even Ash himself seems confused about it. The show has plenty of hand-holding expository dialog so why not explain this crucial thing a bit better? And why does Dr. Lazarus think Ash is a Jekyll/Hyde in the mess hall? He seems confused about what Ash is. SO AM I.

Melissa George is beautiful and a good actress - in this and elsewhere. But you couldn’t have found an actress with blue eyes? Or had her wear contacts? Extremely bright blue eyes are kind of the defining characteristic of Susan Oliver’s face. Come on guys!

The Big Plot™ – Spock. Get over it. A kid said mean things to you once for 12 seconds 20 years ago and you have since realized that it was said out of love. Holy shit. THAT was the payoff for the big buildup all season? 8 episodes of vague, melodramatic intrigue for this to be the explanation for the big rift? My brain is leaking out of my ears now.


I cannot. CANNOT. Believe the ratings I’m seeing for this episode. Like… seriously? This is right up there with Best of Both Worlds, Scorpion, City on the Edge of Forever, Way of the Warrior, etc? You all really think that? This wouldn’t even crack my top 500 Trek episodes. It’s like people are responding to pre-arranged check boxes. The more check boxes there are, the better the episode must be. “This has Pike, Spock, and Talos IV so it must be an amazing episode.” Everyone keeps saying that their minds were blown… am I missing something? Characters we mostly already know from another show played by different actors went to a planet we already know to talk to aliens we already know to reveal that one character was mean to another one when they were children and then the aliens on the planet do the thing they’re known for doing to end the episode. What exactly is supposed to be blowing my mind here? And the minimum rating being “I can imagine better”? What is this, news speak? Do people here have Stockholm Syndrome? Is everyone really blown away as much as they say? Because if they are then standards for Trek are at an all-time low. I feel like Wesley Crusher in “The Game”.

Let me just say that I’m a big fan of Trek. I’ve watched all the shows at least twice, TNG probably 3 times, and DS9 probably 4 times. Watched the Kirk movies more times than I can count. And I remember when ENT came out. It felt *very* different from VOY/DS9/TNG which were pretty much contiguous. Different tech, new cast, new sets, new feel, different time, etc. I think ENT is the weakest of the 5 shows but I bought in. It convinced me to keep going, despite it being different and new. I believed that it was Trek and it took risks that mostly paid off, despite having some big problems. I also understand what the JJ Trek movies were going for, and while they aren’t my cup of tea I recognize them as good action flicks, if not Trek flicks. But this show just sucks ass. I say that first as a consumer of television and second as a Trek fan. I really wanted to like it and actually, I still do want to like it. But I can’t have a moment of utter incredulity at the writing or the fan service or the ‘member’ devices every two minutes. It’s too distracting.

I went to the movies this week and the previews were 3 remakes/reboots, 3 sequels, and another ‘classic rock’ biopic. The theme is “we are out of ideas so we’re going to market known products to you and change them just enough so you’ll pay us twice for the same thing”. I’m already bombarded with enough cynical, recycled content from desperate movie studios out of ideas. I don’t want to feel like Discovery is a big-budget bait and switch in the same way. And right now it certainly seems like the show exists to trick people in to subscribing to ‘all access’ and then relies on them forgetting to cancel. Trek can do better. If it can’t, then at least I can go watch DS9.

Please respond with something other than “if you don’t like it you can git out!”. Cheers.

 

Absolutely...she had that same raspy, weak tone to her voice.

 

You couldn't be anymore wrong about this.

They used the HD transfer for the shots with the actors.

Not everyone is rating it the same way. Some people here just rate it compared to other episodes in the series, not the entire franchise.

 

You lost me at Mary Sue. TLDR.
If you want to write a novel, try using a correct analogy and not some hackneyed slam every Able Iron clone has already used.

But you used a lot of words and I like words. Awesome.

 

I

By definition, I can't be wrong about thinking her facial expressions are too uniform. Are we unclear about what opinions are?

 

This.

 

Little hint for constructive relationships on TrekBBS: When the entire premise of your text-wall is "how can so many of you be so stupid for liking something that obviously/objectively sucks"....you can be assured that you won't get many other responses than the one you hope to avoid.

 

So if a lot of people have a criticism it's not valid. That's a really stellar and good point! And yes. A couple of paragraphs that take 2 minutes to read is a 'novel'?... and I'm the one using bad analogies. haha

 

People here might not take it as seriously as you.

 

That's basically the problem. Positive responses to the content are encouraged and praised. But negative ones are somehow not fair or diminish the discussion? Why would agreement with consensus be the prerequisite for a constructive relationship? Sounds like a compliance mandate. Also, I did not call any particular person stupid. And I didn't say my opinions are objective. Text wall? Am I the only one who isn't intimidated by reading a small amount of text?

 

When you start bashing the folks I presume you wish to convince...
You've completely lost any higher ground.

We get it you hate it.
Perhaps it's time to let it go?

I watched Orville for most of the first season and found it OK, but not great.
So, I moved on to other things.
I don't go to those kind of forums and take great lengths of time and effort trying to convince people who like it, otherwise.