Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x06 - "The Sound of Thunder"

[Doc Mugatu]

Re-watched this episode. Modifying my opinion somewhat: Still a great episode and still rate it an "8."

I am downgrading my assessment of Tyler at the end to a "cranky." I think it was kind of a clunky transition to him getting indignant but not so jarring as it originally struck me.

A bit more critical of Captain Pike's handling of the Kelpian/Ba'ul situation this time out. At the very least he was guilty of being over emotional in letting his prejudice dictate his perception. He clearly assumed the Kelpians were victims based on his personal relationship with Saru. Definitely get the feeling both Pike and Saru will come to regret uncorking of the bottle which held the Kelpians in check. Perhaps the Ba'ul's solution was a more humane one than they were given credit.

Reminds me of eastern Europe after the fall of the U.S.S.R. where once the lid was taken off some of the countries old, long dormant, historical prejudices resurfaced to devastating effect.

Side note: Cadet Tilly still strikes me as a character destined to die before the series end. Maybe even by the end of season 3.

Getting back to Pike, I do like him. Overall he is a nice combo of Kirk and Picard (60-40?). Pike's rationale though can be erratic at times. Hard to argue against the existence of a systemic attitude of imperialism within the Federation in this episode, General Order 1 be damned as the Discovery crew sets aside the data to impose a new order upon a planet they objectively know little about and subjectively is tainted by the point-of-view of just ONE individual.

Have a feeling the next time the Discovery visits Kaminar the Ba'ul maybe extinct at the hands of the Kelpians as this has "blow up in your face" scrawled all over it.

 

[Tuskin38]

Do you mean where? I think it might have been at Comic-Con. If my memory is correct, Kurtzman said that this season will resolve all canon issues.

He was talking about why Burnham was never mentioned by Spock, not the ship and crew.

 

[Alan Roi]

On top of this, we know for a fact that the Ba'ul are more advanced material technology wise and anti-gravity tech wise then the Starfleet of even the Voyager era since they can build giant structures which can stand up to immense pressures of having 40 some kilometers of water on top of them that can also hover in the air.

The stronghold rose up from below the surface of a lake. At no point did I here they rise up from a depth of 40 kilometers below the surface.

 

[TrickyDickie]

I just came across something completely by accident, when searching for something else.

In Australia, 91km south of Adelaide, at Freeman's Nob, Port Elliot, stands an obelisk erected in January of 1852 for ships.

Was this the inspiration for the design we saw in 'The Paradise Syndrome' ? Seems to be a considerable amount of resemblance:

 

[cooleddie74]

I wonder what her plan was?

Have a sister who writes romance novels?

 

[Alan Roi]

Re-watched this episode. Modifying my opinion somewhat: Still a great episode and still rate it an "8."

I am downgrading my assessment of Tyler at the end to a "cranky." I think it was kind of a clunky transition to him getting indignant but not so jarring as it originally struck me.

A bit more critical of Captain Pike's handling of the Kelpian/Ba'ul situation this time out. At the very least he was guilty of being over emotional in letting his prejudice dictate his perception. He clearly assumed the Kelpians were victims based on his personal relationship with Saru. Definitely get the feeling both Pike and Saru will come to regret uncorking of the bottle which held the Kelpians in check. Perhaps the Ba'ul's solution was a more humane one than they were given credit.

Reminds me of eastern Europe after the fall of the U.S.S.R. where once the lid was taken off some of the countries old, long dormant, historical prejudices resurfaced to devastating effect.

Side note: Cadet Tilly still strikes me as a character destined to die before the series end. Maybe even by the end of season 3.

Getting back to Pike, I do like him. Overall he is a nice combo of Kirk and Picard (60-40?). Pike's rationale though can be erratic at times. Hard to argue against the existence of a systemic attitude of imperialism within the Federation in this episode, General Order 1 be damned as the Discovery crew sets aside the data to impose a new order upon a planet they objectively know little about and subjectively is tainted by the point-of-view of just ONE individual.

Have a feeling the next time the Discovery visits Kaminar the Ba'ul maybe extinct at the hands of the Kelpians as this has "blow up in your face" scrawled all over it.

One thing I appreciate most about Pike is his ability to restrain his ego, something which got the better of both Kirk and Picard on a number of occasions. I expect overall he might be a better commander than either of them.

 

[Turtletrekker]

One thing I appreciate most about Pike is his ability to restrain his ego, something which got the better of both Kirk and Picard on a number of occasions. I expect overall he might be a better commander than either of them.

And without Sisko's temper.

 

[Greg Cox]

Re-watched this episode. Modifying my opinion somewhat: Still a great episode and still rate it an "8."

I am downgrading my assessment of Tyler at the end to a "cranky." I think it was kind of a clunky transition to him getting indignant but not so jarring as it originally struck me..

About Tyler's attitude, it's perhaps worth noting that, up until recently, he's been living among Klingons, where you practically have to present a belligerent attitude all the time if you want anybody to respect you. May have picked up some bad habits there.

Plus, the guy lost his child just a few weeks ago, so he's bound to be kinda on edge, to say the least.

 

[Amaris]

The stronghold rose up from below the surface of a lake. At no point did I here they rise up from a depth of 40 kilometers below the surface.

Correct. Owo said that the structure was rising up from beneath the lake, and was approximately 50 kilometers in diameter. That might be the error here.

 

[XCV330]

Bigger doesn't mean more advanced, true, but it does mean bigger.

The Ba'ul have ships which are at least five times the size and possess something like 20 times the internal volume. Which means instead of building and installing a 10ft by 20m warp core that produces 1 units of power on their ships, the Ba'ul could build and install 50ft by 100m warp cores that produce 3 units of power. The same sort of thing holds true for energy weapons and torpedo's since you can just pump more power, or add more anti-matter to make up for the weapons lack of technological advancement.

On top of this, we know for a fact that the Ba'ul are more advanced material technology wise and anti-gravity tech wise then the Starfleet of even the Voyager era since they can build giant structures which can stand up to immense pressures of having 40 some kilometers of water on top of them that can also hover in the air.

Or they have inefficient drive systems that have to be maintained in-situ by a standing army inside these ships, with much more volume dedicated to fuel, expendables and other items that are negligible on a more modern ship from Starfleet or the Tholian Assembly.

Case in point, NASA's SLS is big. One variant of it will be able to loft 130 metric tonnes to orbit. But even if those 130 metric tonnes were the railguns and fire control off a Zumwalt, it wouldn't hold up very well in a theoretical fight with Discovery.

Neither, for that matter would a 22nd century ECS ship like Horizon or Fortunate which barely held their own against small Nausikan pirate craft.

 

[Rahul]

I'm going to write a bigger review later (maybe tomorrow) - but so far, this episode has de-throned "Lethe" for me as my personal favourite "Discovery" episode! I really, really loved it, that was 'Star Trek' at it's absolute best!

The one thing that irked me was the handling of the Prime directive:

• On the one hand, I like DIS approach to it: I always hated how dogmatic it was handled from TNG onwards - I really like the more "loose" apporach of DIS: It's a rule that has lots and lots of reasons to be there, and is most definitely a good and needed one. But on the other hand, it's just a rule, that can be bent and - sooometimes - broken, if the situation is so much out of the ordinary that it doesn't make sense anymore ('breaking PD' >> 'extinction of a species' in my books, always, "dear doctor" )
  
• But on the other hand: Pike and Saru clearly waaaay overstepped their boundaries here: Triggering "varhara" (sp?) for all Kelpians on the entire planet - that was wrong. Because it was pro-active. THEY decided to do that. To not just to interfere, but to completely re-shape the entire planet and two species. What would have happened if suddenly all Kelpians became super-aggressive and overcompensating like Saru? Surely not peace on Kaminar...

Now - I would have completely accepted this if they did it as a re-action to the actions of the Ba'Ul, instead of pro-actively: Say, if the Ba'Ul started to threaten the genocide first (because of Saru) - and then the Federation already is involved, and them triggering the process to try to save them from genocide - in this case, breaking the PD would be completely reasonable - instead of breaking it first - and then have the threat of genocide as an immediate result of it, which... is exactly what the PD is there for to prevent in the first place!

That being said: Apart from that, it was IMO a pitch-perfect Star Trek episode! Like, perfect. I loved every minute of it. It was adventurous, scary, dramatic - and the conflict was extremely multilayered, with antagonists instead of villains, and HOLY HELL were the visuals fucking amazing this time!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Just waiting for a captain to question Detmer's claim of getting her pilot's licence when she was 12 myself.

She didn't say what she was piloting.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I gave the episode 7. I enjoyed it but I had to take points off for a few things. There was a camera work early on that was rather dizzying. The Ba'ul themselves, were quite impressive visually (and done with practical effects rather than CGI), fell a little flat for me otherwise. Just a little too mustache twirly for my tastes. And so many of their actions were plot conveniences designed to help out our characters. Why was it necessary to study Saru and his sister before killing them other than to conveniently give them a chance to escape? If they thought Saru was so dangerous, why didn't they send more of those flying armored drones? And, while I realize that turning spare parts into a transmitter with the first trick Saru learned, it was awfully convenient that he should so quickly find the parts that he needed with the limited materials at hand. I hope we get further development down the line of the history between the Ba'ul and the Kelpiens, but right now I'm not too impressed with their story here.

I like that we got further movement on the Red Angels story, but they were little too much of a deus ex machina here.

Otherwise, I did like the new confident Saru, although he will need to find a way to reign in his emotions a little bit on the bridge. I wonder if he has a friend who can help him with that? I did like Siranna, and hope to see her again.

The beginning of the road to recovery for Culber was interesting. I can understand Stamets being so excited to have his love back, but he needs to step back and notice what Culber is going through.

I'm glad we're finally getting to see Spock next week. The season long tease has been getting tedious. I wonder if the season was originally planned out to be split into parts like the first season? Bringing Spock in in the last episode of the first half of the season would seem to indicate that a mid-season cliffhanger may have been considered.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I gave it a seven. A solid episode with great performances by Doug Jones and Hanna Spear. It kind of fell apart at the end. I usually do a rewatch on Sundays, so maybe it will work better then.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

The Ba'ul have ships which are at least five times the size and possess something like 20 times the internal volume. Which means instead of building and installing a 10ft by 20m warp core that produces 1 units of power on their ships, the Ba'ul could build and install 50ft by 100m warp cores that produce 3 units of power. The same sort of thing holds true for energy weapons and torpedo's since you can just pump more power, or add more anti-matter to make up for the weapons lack of technological advancement.

On top of this, we know for a fact that the Ba'ul are more advanced material technology wise and anti-gravity tech wise then the Starfleet of even the Voyager era since they can build giant structures which can stand up to immense pressures of having 40 some kilometers of water on top of them that can also hover in the air.

That's some fine ass-pulling, son.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I gave the episode 7. I enjoyed it but I had to take points off for a few things. There was a camera work early on that was rather dizzying. The Ba'ul themselves, were quite impressive visually (and done with practical effects rather than CGI), fell a little flat for me otherwise. Just a little too mustache twirly for my tastes. And so many of their actions were plot conveniences designed to help out our characters. Why was it necessary to study Saru and his sister before killing them other than to conveniently give them a chance to escape? If they thought Saru was so dangerous, why didn't they send more of those flying armored drones? And, while I realize that turning spare parts into a transmitter with the first trick Saru learned, it was awfully convenient that he should so quickly find the parts that he needed with the limited materials at hand. I hope we get further development down the line of the history between the Ba'ul and the Kelpiens, but right now I'm not too impressed with their story here.

But that's one of the tropes Trek does often, and does so well. Many times we have seen characters in situations where they find a few random parts or scraps and are able to fashion whatever is needed to save their ass at that time. I don't really mind it that much.

I'm more interested in where the Ba'ul all buggered off to. Come on there had to be more then just one of those buggers on that huge ship / base. It just seemed like after the angel had shut everything down they had all buggered off somewhere.

Was that really some of them in the water near the end? Someone mentioned you could see them swimming away from the beach at the end of the episode. I didn't catch any of that so have to watch it again.

 

[Fateor]

The stronghold rose up from below the surface of a lake. At no point did I here they rise up from a depth of 40 kilometers below the surface.

The Stronghold was stated as being 50km in diameter.

Using that as a measuring stick the solid structure is somewhere between 10-15km tall and the floating obelisks somewhere between 15-20km tall. Which means to fully cover it to the point of invisibility like we saw we are talking about a water depth of somewhere between 30km to 40km.

Or they have inefficient drive systems that have to be maintained in-situ by a standing army inside these ships, with much more volume dedicated to fuel, expendables and other items that are negligible on a more modern ship from Starfleet or the Tholian Assembly.

Case in point, NASA's SLS is big. One variant of it will be able to loft 130 metric tonnes to orbit. But even if those 130 metric tonnes were the railguns and fire control off a Zumwalt, it wouldn't hold up very well in a theoretical fight with Discovery.

Neither, for that matter would a 22nd century ECS ship like Horizon or Fortunate which barely held their own against small Nausikan pirate craft.

From what we were told the Ba'ul were, at most, maybe eighty to a hundred years behind the Federation.

Of course from what we saw, the Ba'ul were actually more advanced then the Federation in certain area's.

 

[Rahul]

There was a camera work early on that was rather dizzying.

Agreed - the camera work was pretty bad at times this episode...

The Ba'ul themselves, were quite impressive visually (and done with practical effects rather than CGI), fell a little flat for me otherwise. Just a little too mustache twirly for my tastes.

I honestly have to say - I loved that about them!
They were presented like evil incarnate - inhumane futuristic demons. And yet they were antagonists for completely unrelated reasons:

They were afraid. They were dangerous only to the Kelpians (but to all of them) - their impressive looking ships not a real match for a single Starfleet vessel. Hell - were it the TNG days, the Ba'Ul would have been some regular humans with a funky latex-nose.

I really liked that - it was a subversion on many levels: Yes, the Ba'Ul were more plot devices in the story than actual characters. But they had a very obvious reasoning and understandable motivation for their actions. I just liked that they looked and acted so absolutely freakish-ly evil - yet the actual core conflict with them was a completely different one and far from a black-and-white situation!

And so many of their actions were plot conveniences designed to help out our characters. Why was it necessary to study Saru and his sister before killing them other than to conveniently give them a chance to escape? If they thought Saru was so dangerous, why didn't they send more of those flying armored drones? And, while I realize that turning spare parts into a transmitter with the first trick Saru learned, it was awfully convenient that he should so quickly find the parts that he needed with the limited materials at hand.

Yeah - that part was a bit iffy - but stuff like that has happened so far in every Trek series, pretty much every time one crew member was stranded on an alien ship, so I let it slide. But I can completely understand it bothering you.

 

[Cyrus]

I liked this exchange:

Burnham tells Tilly she wants information for Kaminar from the sphere archive
Tilly: That's what Airiam and I are here for, we will find it.
Airiam: There it is.
Tilly: When I said we, I just meant Airiam.

 

[Amaris]

I liked this exchange:

Burnham tells Tilly she want information for Kaminar from the sphere archive
Tilly: That what Airiam and I are here for, we will find it.
Airiam: There it is.
Tilly: When I said we, I just meant Airiam.

I did love that scene.