Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)

[uniderth]

The way I see it is that Impulse is not FTL and also not warp speed of any kind! The only time it's used is in the episodes that you've quoted I agree but on Impulse the Enterprise is years away from Starbases as opposed to days in WNMHGB and stated in Kirk's logs! Does anyone else on here think that Impulse is faster than light technology as well as warp speed?
JB

I think that impulse power can power a low level FTL drive. But I think that an impulse engine is STL.

 

[BK613]

I think that impulse power can power a low level FTL drive. But I think that an impulse engine is STL.

This.

 

[yotsuya]

You're willing to allow for changes under the guise of a refit between pilots and series but not within the series? Isn't that a bit... inconsistent? Why not during the series? Did you ever notice that Sulu's helm station in S1 is different in S2?

Within the series is fine if they stick to it. Some changes vanished as quickly as they appeared.

And on closer look, you are right about the paddle shaped dilithium crystals. From TAF on they are the same, though they changed the location. I would guess that the location in TAF is a storage location or additional circuits. In Mudd's Women they lost several crystals trying to save Mudd and the location in Elaan and TPS only holds one.

 

[Maurice]

IIRC, we saw dilithium crystals in TWOK and TVH and they are back to the chunky crystal form but located in a separate room/chamber away from the M/AM reaction.

We see them on the BOP in TVH, but we never see them in TWOK. All we see is Spock reaching inside the thermos thingy and it's never explained what's in there.

 

[blssdwlf]

We see them on the BOP in TVH, but we never see them in TWOK. All we see is Spock reaching inside the thermos thingy and it's never explained what's in there.

Look at the lid or cover of the thermos thingy that Spock reaches into. IMHO, it's either very clever on the props department or sheer luck that Scotty's updated "dilithium sequencer" in the BOP is the same one that was used as the lid of the the thermos thingy in TWOK.

SCOTT: We're ready, sir. I've converted the dilithium sequencer into something a little less primitive.​

 

[Maurice]

J

Look at the lid or cover of the thermos thingy that Spock reaches into. IMHO, it's either very clever on the props department or sheer luck that Scotty's updated "dilithium sequencer" in the BOP is the same one that was used as the lid of the the thermos thingy in TWOK.

SCOTT: We're ready, sir. I've converted the dilithium sequencer into something a little less primitive.​

Again, it's not identified as such and props get re-used as other things all the time. But you can decide that;s what it is.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Does the swirly shaft thing appear to be channeling something? Yes, swirly energy
Does the swirly shaft thing appear to be a path of energy, including the source of it? Yes, if we count what appears to be the source at the bottom of the shaft.

LOL. But accurate. Why swirly energy, though? It seems like it would be the matter and antimatter swirling around in non-1/1 ratio to get plasma or more or less energy as a reaction. Same deal with Voyager.

Is there any reason you can't use the curved corridor or the DOTD exit as cues for where the engine rooms are?

I want to use those cues, but they seem inconclusive on their own. In Probert's diagram on this thread you can see exactly where in the ship he visualized the Engine Room to be, because you can see where the shafts meet. In TOS it is not as clear, though I in some ways did and in some ways did not like the image where the orange structure make up the Power Transfer Conduits.

The DTD is probably the top or somehow connected to an energizer since crystals are later contained in it (Season 3).

I don't think that is what is being referred to here. Especially since I don't think we have any instance in all of the Star Trek franchise of the engineering hull being referred to as a nacelle

Using the term "franchise" rather than "canon" opens up mention of the Kelvin where the engineering hull and nacelle are apparently in the same module (with an additional secondary hull above that is dominated by shuttlebay)

We can throw Mudd's Women out of this discussion because those are specifically lithium crystals NOT dilithium. And even then they are referred to as having power fed through them, as opposed to being the source of power

IIRC, we saw dilithium crystals in TWOK and TVH and they are back to the chunky crystal form but located in a separate room/chamber away from the M/AM reaction.

These are clear crystals like the ones seen in "The Voyage Home" and TNG. Maybe it is a different types of dilithium, only called "lithium" in TOS, but called "dilithium" also in TNG. It differs from the pink crystals seen in the third season.

Or you can embrace it and think of the Enterprise as a ship that has movable parts.

I said before this is what I thought I was seeing when I first saw the show. I did not know about the changes to the model until later after seeing a number of episodes.

 

[blssdwlf]

LOL. But accurate. Why swirly energy, though? It seems like it would be the matter and antimatter swirling around in non-1/1 ratio to get plasma or more or less energy as a reaction. Same deal with Voyager.

It's probably warp plasma or some other energy in the Enterprise's shaft. Voyager's warp core has two blue swirly segments but the ends and lower half are encased metal. I'm not sure where the reaction chamber is on that warp core compared to the E-D's warp core.
Enterprise's vertical shaft suggests the M/AM reaction chamber is at the very bottom of the shaft and the swirly energy is sent upwards to the impulse and warp engines.

I want to use those cues, but they seem inconclusive on their own. In Probert's diagram on this thread you can see exactly where in the ship he visualized the Engine Room to be, because you can see where the shafts meet. In TOS it is not as clear, though I in some ways did and in some ways did not like the image where the orange structure make up the Power Transfer Conduits.

I think you can come up with something that will fit your idea of where the major components are on the TOS Enterprise. The vagueness actually works in our favor

 

[Mytran]

The door comes down and cuts off part of the long blue/grey swirl device, then Scotty says the main energizer is out.

A single Energizer is also mentioned in the earlier battle simulation. TOS on the other hand has at least 2 Main Energizers (nicely paralleling the advancement of technology in TMP) and they are on Deck 7 (according to The Doomsday Machine)

Antimatter Production (or regeneration):
ODONA: Can you make it last a long, long time?
KIRK: How long would you like it to last?
ODONA: Forever.
KIRK: Well, let's see. Power, that's no problem, it regenerates.

Could the dilithium crystal be the main element of this system, too? Dilithium, meaning it consists of two lithium atoms. Maybe one is matter and the other is anti-matter, subatomically separated in a stable crystalline matrix so the two atoms do not annihilate each other. When “energized” (don’t know with what, i.e. electrons, positrons, up or down quarks, magnetic fields, gamma rays, etc.), the dilithium crystal has the unique property to absorb and convert matter through subatomic charge transference into anti-matter. The dilithium crystal can be in either its natural crystalline form or processed into a paddle shape. Up to four dilithium crystals are connected in parallel inside the Dilithium Crystal Convertor Assembly (DCCA). Focused streams of matter and antimatter are injected each onto opposite surfaces or facets of an energized dilithium crystal. In addition to controlling the annihilation process, the M/AM reaction energy keeps the crystal energized to allow the excess matter to be absorbed interstitially into the crystal matrix and converts the matter into antimatter. This potion of the DCCA is controlled by the matter-antimatter integrator which also magnetically extracts the now excess (regenerated) antimatter from the crystal then magnetically transfers it up to the warp nacelles for use in the warp engine M/AM reactors (no dilithium), recycles it back into the DCCA, or stores it in the antimatter confinement pod in each nacelle and in the one down below in the engineering hull. Once the reaction starts, the ship only needs to feed enough matter into the system to make up the losses from the M/AM annihilation in the three reactors. To refill the matter fuel, the Enterprise sucks it in from interstellar gases especially when near stars. Remember, the M/AM reaction is what makes the magic work.

Shut down the dilithium crystals, you shut down the warp drive and the warp power it feeds into the ship EPS by starving the M/AM reaction of AM fuel. Turn it on full blast into the warp engines with no antimatter bypass control (TWS), you need to burn it as fast as you can or you blow up due to the excess AM build-up in the reactors. Cut off the AM to the crystal, the crystal shuts down and no more AM is made to blow you up. You don't want to shutdown the matter fuel side or you blow up since it is needed to burn the residual AM still in the system. I think I just solved the sabotage scenario in That Which Survives!

Assuming my dilithium crystal theory is close to being correct, then it can also explain why the dilithium crystals are needed to bridge the dimensional transport to and from the Antimatter Universe in the hokey The Alternative Factor.

SPOCK: A kind of physical warp, Captain, in which none of our established physical laws apply with any regularity. However, with the dilithium crystals, I was able to localise it.
LAZARUS: Yes! That's it! The dilithium crystals. With their power we could do it.​

Lazarus' ship is capable to transport objects between the two universes but for some reason it only transposes that object/person with its counterpart. But, by transporting an object through dilithium, that object is not transposed with its counterpart (or visa versa from the other side), rather it is transported into the other universe. So, we get two Lazari (one matter and one antimatter) in the same universe which when they touch, it causes complete annihilation of both universes in some hokey fashion. Apparently, the dilithium also stabilizes the matter so it doesn't react with the antimatter in the universe unless it is identical particles, or Kirk would have blown up the planet when he arrived.

I seem to recall another poster with a very similar theory a few years back (although I can't find the thread now). Not that I'm suggesting that your idea isn't original - it's a fantastic example of TOS producing convergent theories independently, which only strengthens the position!
My only question is - why wasn't this technology still used in the TNG era?

Option 1: It popped out of the engine room in the secondary hull, moved through some of the corridors/walls then left. Option 2: It popped out the engine room in the saucer, moved through some corridors/walls, tripped down the elevator shaft, moved through more corridors/walls then left.

Or my own "split pinwheel" theory, in which the alien had to journey down to the secondary hull to rejoin with the main portion of itself

I'm going to disagree on the canonicity of saucer separation for the NCC-1701. All this dialogue indicates is that the nacelles could be jettisoned, NOT the secondary hull. I think that while it is technically correct to consider the secondary hull a nacelle. I don't think that is what is being referred to here. Especially since I don't think we have any instance in all of the Star Trek franchise of the engineering hull being referred to as a nacelle. The closest we get is having references to the "engineering section" which sometimes may or may not be used to refer to the secondary hull.

I think the hypothesis that takes the least amount of stretch is that the "main section" refers to both the primary and secondary hull. I will note however, that this doesn't necessarily preclude a saucer separation.

If just going by Savage Curtain then I would tend to agree. However, events in The Apple revolved around boosting Impulse power, in which case lightening the load by dumping half the ship would be a major help.

Again, it's not identified as such and props get re-used as other things all the time. But you can decide that;s what it is.

Perhaps some pictures would help to clarify things?
The crystal container in ST2 and ST4:

And its counterpart in TNG:

And what we would expect in TNG:

 

[uniderth]

If just going by Savage Curtain then I would tend to agree. However, events in The Apple revolved around boosting Impulse power, in which case lightening the load by dumping half the ship would be a major help.

True. However, "The Apple " is the episode that specifically mentions discarding the "warp drive nacelles". Out of the two episodes "The Apple" is pretty much the nail in the coffin for me that it is the two cylinders that will be jettisoned, leaving behind the primary and secondary hulls as the "main section". Because even if you're willing to define "nacelles" as the engineering hull and the two engines, the term "warp drive nacelles" is pretty darn specific.

 

[Henoch]

And what we would expect in TNG:

You cut off the key info on the right of the figure. Here, I "found" the full sketch:

 

[Mytran]

True. However, "The Apple " is the episode that specifically mentions discarding the "warp drive nacelles". Out of the two episodes "The Apple" is pretty much the nail in the coffin for me that it is the two cylinders that will be jettisoned, leaving behind the primary and secondary hulls as the "main section". Because even if you're willing to define "nacelles" as the engineering hull and the two engines, the term "warp drive nacelles" is pretty darn specific.

But what weight benefit would discarding the nacelles bring, compared with dumping them and half the ship?
Also, what is the process for "discarding" the warp drive nacelles? If the nacelles & pylons are firmly anchored to the ship (which with all the stresses for distorting space/time, you would hope they would be) then the only way to detach them would be in another location - and the next obvious section for doing so is the dorsal neck.
Couple that with the fact that separation of saucer and stardrive section was a concept that existing since the first draft of the Writer's Bible and I have no doubt what the intent of the line was.

You cut off the key info on the right of the figure. Here, I "found" the full sketch:

Well that's me convinced!

 

[Maurice]

Perhaps some pictures would help to clarify things?
The crystal container in ST2 and ST4:

What part of "not identified as such" in TWOK are you failing to grok? They never say WHAT it is in TWOK. That's all.

 

[Mytran]

What part of "not identified as such" in TWOK are you failing to grok? They never say WHAT it is in TWOK. That's all.

Not arguing that - I just thought it would be helpful to have some visuals so that people can make a direct comparison.

• It is undoubtedly the same prop in both shots; basically a glass box with a crystal inside.
• Crystals in Star Trek are usually dilithium.
• The prop is reused in TVH to represent a dilithium crystal housing.

So yes, the TWOK prop could be something different - but what?

 

[Henoch]

They needed to improve the design of that thing that Spock reaches into, and install a pop-up crystal holder on it.

 

[Mytran]

Not to mention bolt it more securely to the floor. For a critical piece of hardware, it sure wobbles around a lot!

 

[uniderth]

So yes, the TWOK prop could be something different - but what?

Whatever it was that brought the "mains" back online and shoots fog everywhere.

 

[Mytran]

Whatever it was that brought the "mains" back online and shoots fog everywhere.

Correction - space fog!

 

[Maurice]

Not arguing that - I just thought it would be helpful to have some visuals so that people can make a direct comparison.

• It is undoubtedly the same prop in both shots; basically a glass box with a crystal inside.
• Crystals in Star Trek are usually dilithium.
• The prop is reused in TVH to represent a dilithium crystal housing.

So yes, the TWOK prop could be something different - but what?

Here's a behind the scenes photo of the gizmo opened up. No crystals.

When I asked about what was inside it, modelmaker Richard A. Coyle replied, "Maurice: Sorry I misread your question: It was like the insides of a Police light without the red lens. Keven it was the recystalazier <sic> in ST4 after that i lost track of it."

 

[Mytran]

Here's a behind the scenes photo of the gizmo opened up. No crystals.

When I asked about what was inside it, modelmaker Richard A. Coyle replied, "Maurice: Sorry I misread your question: It was like the insides of a Police light without the red lens. Keven it was the recystalazier <sic> in ST4 after that i lost track of it."

Great photo - but that is one fragile looking prop!