Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Henoch, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks Maurice for the bts photo :)

    I guess it was a good thing the gizmo lid was never identified in TWOK and pretty much looks like it did functionally (as in sat on top of a column in a sideroom) the same thing in TVH.

     
  2. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    How much curved corridor outside of the engine room is needed to meet the on-screen evidence? Without changing corridor diameter and keeping the engine room on the centerline of a 947 foot ship, I can put 60 degrees of the curved corridor plus turbolift at its end in the secondary hull. If more is needed, then we are up in the saucer, (or we need a bigger boat).
     
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  3. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    That's totally up to you. IIRC, there is a curved corridor going to the hanger/hangar deck in "The Immunity Syndrome" so why not? :)
     
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  4. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If you are willing to interpret editing cuts as different stretches of corridor then you might just squeeze it in, regarding The Naked Time anyway:
    [​IMG]
    Court Martial shows a bit more, as well as the straight corridor opposite the Engine Room door and the turbolift adjacent:
    [​IMG]

    Now, if you were to combine these two into a set plan that would just about fit on 947' long Enterprise's secondary hull, it might look something like this:
    [​IMG]
    (I have conjectured the left hand corridor to try and regain some sort of symmetry)

    If the above is correct, the Ultimate Computer corridor and Engine Room would have to be somewhere completely different, as it shows approximately 105 degrees of the circle:
    [​IMG]
    (highlighted areas visible in episode)
    Fortunately, the final corner they turn before entering the Engine Room is a very tight shot, so we can't technically judge the angle of the wall. Therefore, the corridor might well be oriented thus:
    [​IMG]
    This would indeed fit in the secondary hull
    Here's the conjectured corridor opposite, to make it more symmetrical:
    [​IMG]

    While this fits, you would also need a THIRD Engine Room and stubby corridor outside to account for episodes like JTB, DOTD or By Any Other Name where this angle is seen:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  5. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Thanks for the corridor data, Mytran. My biggest issue is that I need a connecting side corridor meeting up with another corridor that runs parallel to the hull that takes you down to the stern of the ship. The side corridor shown (to the transporter set) is past the 60 degree arc and points into space (or a hatch in the hull?). The side corridor could be behind one of the doors, though, the third second one off the engine room. The old S1 ladder nook is located about were a shortened 60 degree corridor ends. I have some thinking to do.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  6. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I've tried various combinations over the years and I've reached the conclusion that the secondary hull is not very friendly to studio set accurate corridors! Either the ship would need to grow to 1,100 feet (at least) or the layout of the set needs to be distorted (as per my earlier post) which in turn requires greater justification for such odd shapes.

    Robert_Comsol got around the issue by using curved corridors with a smaller diameter than the studio set, with fairly convincing results IMO since he was able to wrap complete circles around that yellow spot at the base of the hull.

    For myself, I have removed all but a very few sections of curved corridor from the secondary hull (Deck 12 and 14, mainly) and nothing around the Engine Room.

    I am genuinely keen to see your own take on this troubled issue!
     
  7. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I’m not sure whether this has been mentioned, but among the locations specified is one right in the second pilot placing one engineering station on deck three, which presumably is in the A/B superstructure below the bridge:

    SPOCK: Damage control reports, all stations!
    CREWMAN [OC]: Gravity control switching to batteries.
    DEHNER: Something hit me, like an electrical charge.
    PIPER: He's alive. Appears to be in shock.
    CREWMAN [OC]: Engineering deck three, can you give a damage report?
    CREWMAN 2 [OC]: Sensor beams. Full power on the deflectors.
    SPOCK: Main engines are out, sir. We're on emergency power cells. Casualties, nine dead.
    CREWMAN [OC]: Gravity is down to point eight.

    And in “Corbomite Maneuver”, deck five:

    BAILEY [OC]: Engineering, deck five, report. Phaser crews, come on, let's get with it. Phaser station two, where's your green light?
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  8. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Might even be higher - in "Court Martial"
    SPOCK: B deck, in or near Engineering.
    KIRK: Seal off B deck, sections 18Y through 23D.​

    I figured that would make this engine room in the saucer where it services the impulse engines. However, does that mean the saucer engine room is below the bridge? (Note that since the engine room is effectively 2 decks tall then that might still work as it could occupy B and C deck...)

    However for the "engineering decks" I think that refers to decks in the engineering hull.

    "The Conscience of the King"
    KIRK: Lieutenant Kevin Riley in communications, I wish to have him transferred down to the engineering decks.​
    "The Corbomite Maneuver"
    BAILEY: Engineering decks alert. Phaser crews, let's...​

    and even then, the Engineering deck has multiple levels...

    "The Enemy Within"
    SCOTT: Mister Scott, sir, on the lower level of the Engineering deck.​

     
  9. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Thanks for the insight. I found that if the diameter of the curved corridor is reduced by 10 feet, then I can get the full length curved corridor in the 947 foot Enterprise secondary hull. I'm laying it out; no outside doors or side passage is possible near the turbolift, but the rest fits.
     
  10. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Universal on all ships is a fairly common compartment identification system. <I have no idea if this analysis has been done before on this site; if so, please except my apology. This is long, to get the conclusion, just jump to the bold line at the end.> So, I researched the naval compartment identification systems for ships, and I got some insight. Wiki says:

    Compartments are identified by the deck forming the floor of that compartment. Different types of ships have different deck naming conventions. The United States Navy (USN) system identifies each compartment by a four-part code separated by hyphens. The first part of the code represents a numbered deck, the second part of the code is a hull support frame numbered sequentially from the bow, the third part of the code is a number representing compartment position with respect to the ship's centerline, and the fourth part of the code is alphabetic representing the use of that compartment. The centerline position code is zero for a compartment on the ship's centerline, odd numbers for compartments entirely to starboard of the centerline, and even for compartments entirely to port. For compartments sharing the same deck and forward frame, the first two parts of the code are identical, and the third part of the code is numbered outward from the centerline. The fourth part of the code is:
    A for store rooms (or AA for cargo holds)
    C for manned communication or control centers
    E for manned engineering machinery spaces
    F for oil storage tanks (or FF for oil cargo tanks)
    G for gasoline-storage tanks (or GG for gasoline cargo tanks)
    J for JP-5 storage tanks (or JJ for JP-5 cargo tanks)
    K for chemical-storage spaces
    L for living spaces, including sleeping, dining, washrooms, sick bay, and passageways.
    M for ammunition magazines
    Q for miscellaneous spaces not otherwise coded, including laundry, galley, pantries, wiring trunks, unmanned engineering, electrical and electronic spaces, shops, and offices.
    T for vertical-access trunks (escape trunks)
    V for void (empty) spaces
    W for water-storage tanks​

    Starfleet must use a unique ship compartment identification system to deal with a circular primary hull and a cylinder secondary hull. All systems use Deck No. followed by a Frame Identification. Frame Identifications can have numerical and alphabetical units. A natural point in the ship is the break between the saucer and the secondary hull, so, The saucer would have one type of system, and the secondary hull being a simple cylinder shape, would have another system. The neck would be with the secondary hull.

    Putting the saucer system aside for now, the secondary hull system must be very simple having only deck and frame identifiers. 18Y = Deck 18, Frame Y. 23D = Deck 23, Frame D. "18Y through 23D" is the block of compartments for Decks 18 down to 23, and Frames D through Y. Deck number is self explanatory. Frame I.D. is in alphabetical order where Frame A is at the fore point and extends sequentially aft. After Z comes AA, etc. if needed.

    "B deck" doesn't make naval sense unless it is a new letter designation like in the list above, but you would not use the term, "deck" with it. "H deck" has been previously used on this site to represent the Hangar Deck, so, maybe all that is in the secondary hull is "H" for Hangar operational areas, and "B" for the rest of the hull areas. Frame Y at the break point for the Hangar areas makes sense on how Kirk knew to stop at Frame Y. "B" deck must not include the dorsal neck (maybe "T" since the shape and function resembles a large, vertical-access trunk?), since Kirk also knew to exclude Frames A-C. Another simple choice, "B deck" or "B level" would be the second level up off the main deck in the engine room, but in naval terms, it would be expressed in "levels" and not "decks", but hey, its a spaceship and not a 20th century water ship. The simplest choice is "B deck" is the secondary hull, where "A deck" is the saucer.

    Kirk seals off compartments 18Y through 23D, where deck 18 must include the upper portion of the engine room, and "through deck 23" is down to the bottom of the ship. Remember, the original writer's guide gave 23 decks in the ship. The excluded areas are the aft Hangar areas, and everything Deck 17 and above. Conclusion: The Engineering Room with the pipe cathedral is in the secondary hull, Decks 18 or lower between Frames D and Y. Easy Peasy. :techman:
     
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  11. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Following up on with Compartment Identifications, the saucer would use a unique system of Deck, Frame, Location, Function. For a saucer shape, Deck 1 would not include the "superstructure" blisters of the bridge and the two levels below, so, what we think as the first main deck would be deck 4, and would be labelled as "1" in the compartment ID system. Deck 6 would be labelled as "3", etc. Frame would be either a hull frame based on the shape of the hull, so, I could see a bow-to-stern orientation based on pressure sections, but I prefer a center-to-edge orientation. For example, the center frame is A with concentric rings B, C, D, E, and F is the outer edge. Then the next digit would be its location port-to-starboard off the ship's centerline. I would put 0 at the 12 o'clock bow followed by 1 on starboard, 2 on port, 3 on starboard, 4 on port, etc. working back to the stern. Each position or maybe a radial frame would be a number.
    James T. Kirk (Room 3F 121), Leonard "Bones" McCoy (Room 3F 127), and Janice Rand (3F 125 and later Room 3C 46)​
    3F 121 would be deck 6, ring F, 121 frames off the bow on the starboard side.
    3F 127 would be deck 6, ring F, 127 frames off the bow on the starboard side.
    3F 125 would be deck 6, ring F, 125 frames off the bow on the starboard side.
    3C 46 would be deck 6, ring C, 46 frames off the bow on the port side.
    Granted, we can get a lot of hokey ID's, but that is because a system was not fully developed, and the label maker didn't get the memo (or a dictionary). After a while, they just reused the old labels and slapped them where-ever it looked good. And then, the dialog or PA chatter didn't match the system, either. Maybe we get a little label insight but no secret decoder ring. :thumbdown:
     
  12. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Or “3F-121” could refer to
    Deck #3 (three decks below the main deck)
    Frame (radial position) F
    Centerline Relationship (ring) 1
    Type of Compartment 21

    On the deck 2/ deck 3 engineering question, there is a yellow rectangular hatch outlined in red on the aft top of the B/C structure that is colored just like the round hatch on the secondary hull keel. (There is another one on the undercut ahead of the fantail). Could that have been meant to be a primary hull fuel hatch? Maybe.
     
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  13. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    I thought H Deck was where the weapons locker was broken into in "The Conscience of the King"? It is unlikely that it corresponds to "Hangar" deck in this case. In the movies, isn't the bridge also labeled Deck A and a reference made to C Deck suggesting that the primary hull decks can be either numbered or lettered?
     
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  14. Lakenheath 72

    Lakenheath 72 Commodore Commodore

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    Examples of other areas and sections in the Enterprise

    We have a rec room at Area 39. ("The Naked Time")
    In "The Tholian Web", after an attack by the Tholians, there was minor damage reported from sections A4 to C13.
    In "The Conscience of the King", after discovering a phaser on overload, Spock cleared the section where Kirk's cabin was located and ordered C4 and C5 cleared of personnel.
     
  15. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    What to do with 3C 46? Ha.
    Hull Markings is a whole other area of discussions. What does the yellow area with red outline mean? I think red outlines and lines indicate danger to the crew spacewalking on the hull or hovering very close. On a hatch, I think is means it opens outward perhaps without warning. Yellow means it is hazardous to health such as radiation, chemical reactant, biohazard, etc. For example, the yellow square with red outline could be the location of the ship's emergency recorder which blows out with flame/heat hazard when launched. Big yellow hatch with red circle on hull bottom; may be the antimatter pod ejection port with antimatter reaction or radiation hazard when ejected. Red with no yellow, physical danger of hatch opening outward, but no health hazardous materials. Yellow door on underside of saucer, hatch opens normally, but biohazard lab vent system. Grey outlines, hatch opens normally (internally?) and nothing hazardous inside. Red warning lines, physical danger to navigation around the hull. "Walkways" on top saucer and secondary hull, are maybe just that, safe walkways when the ship is at power.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  16. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Bingo. In Day of the Dove, Scott checked out the Armory which I assumed had to be near Engineering since he was able to get to it safety with the Klingons controlling Deck 6 and half of Deck 7. Scott went aft of Engineering in the secondary hull to the Armory which must be near the Hangar Bay. The location makes sense to arm/equip shuttlecraft teams.
     
  17. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Do we know where it is relative to Kirk’s? It was a redress of Kirk’s quarters, right? Ignoring the corridor being the same radius...
    Deck #3 (three decks below the main deck)
    Frame (radial position) C
    Centerline Relationship (ring) 4
    Type of Compartment 6

    The question is, what is different about McCoy’s quarters to make them a type 6 compartment while Kirk’s is type 21? And what are “sections 18-Y through 23-D” near "B Deck in or near Engineering”? Does this mean the aft part of deck 18 through a forward section on deck 23? If so, what happened to lettering those secondary decks?

    My head hurts.
     
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  18. BK613

    BK613 Commodore Commodore

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    Since 1949 the US Navy has a sort of Cartesian (X-Y-Z) system.
    -The vertical axis units are the deck/level numbers with numbering relative to the Main Deck*, which is Deck 1. Full decks below the Main Deck are called Decks and are numbered 2, 3 , 4 etc., the count increasing toward the keel. Floors above the Main Deck are called Levels and are numbered 01, 02, 03, etc., with the numbering increasing toward the masthead.
    -The Fore and Aft axis starts at the bow of the ship with frame 1 and counts toward the stern. Compartments (and other components) are identified by the frame of their forward bulkhead (in between frames, the frame forward of the bulkhead.)
    -The axis running athwartships uses the fore-and-aft centerline as its starting point. Compartments are numbered from this centerline with the numbers increasing as you move away from the centerline. The numbering occurs in relation to the forward frame of compartments. Compartments on the port side are even-numbered, those on the starboard are odd. A Compartment that straddles the centerline is numbered 0**.

    These three elements (and the compartment usage code) are combined in the following format:
    Deck/level# - Frame# - FromCenterline# - ComparmentUsage
    Examples
    3-107-2-L
    is on Deck 3(two floors below the main deck), has a forward frame of 107 and is the first compartment from the centerline on the port side along that frame. L means living spaces (actually the head of a ship I served on LOL)
    3-107-0-L
    is on Deck 3, has a forward frame of 107 and straddles the centerline. L means living spaces. The Engineering Department's sleeping quarters from the same ship.
    02-145-5-Q
    is on Level 02 (two floors above the main deck), has a forward frame of 145 and is the third compartment from the centerline on the starboard side along that frame. Q means it is a workspace. (02-145-5 means there are compartments 02-145-1 and 02-145-3 inboard of it.)

    Hopefully, this helps. Couple of final points. First that the US Navy's system is more than a numbering system, it is a physical location system as well. Second, it is the same system for every ship, so that sailors only learn the particulars for a ship and not another system, And finally, it is designed to navigate sailors up out of the hull and down out of the superstructure in times of emergency.

    *(Typically, the highest full deck of the hull.)
    **(Note: For now I'm ignoring L-shaped or U-shaped compartments.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  19. lawman

    lawman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hm, how do you figure? We know from the actual set plans that the radial distance to the outer corridor wall was 53'2" (and to the inner wall of the briefing room on the other side, 55'7"). That makes for a corridor diameter of 106'4" (plus hull thickness).

    We also know from the dimensions of the 11' shooting model that the secondary hull had a max diameter of 13.4". On a 1080' Enterprise (with the model at a 1/96 scale), that would be 107'2" (IOW, with a little wiggle room concerning hull thickness, just wide enough for the corridor ring—which is, IMHO, an interesting observation to ponder). On a 947' Enterprise, though (with the model at a 1/84 scale), the secondary hull width would be just 93'10"... whereas the diameter of the corridor, even reduced as you posit, would still be 96'4". It extends into space.

    (I've long been of the opinion that the interiors fit a 1080' ship, not a 947' ship. But if you're aiming for the latter, then the ratio is 7:8, so set dimensions need to be reduced by 14%, not just 10%, no?)
     
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  20. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Going by the Briefing Room set plans (one of the few that features detailed measurements) the radius to the outer corridor wall was 51 feet, from what I recall. I'll check my blueprints when I get home, but that would reduce the overall sizes enough to just squeeze inside the hull (going with Henoch's 10' reduction)
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019