when did TOS take place, 23rd century or 22nd century

[Henoch]

MITCHELL: My love has wings. Slender, feathered things with grace in upswept curve and tapered tip. The Nightingale Woman, written by Phineas Tarbolde on the Canopius planet back in 1996. It's funny you picked that one, Doctor.
DEHNER: Why?
MITCHELL: That's one of the most passionate love sonnets of the past couple of centuries. How do you feel, Doctor?

If Mitchell said that 1996 was in the last century, the date of "Where No Man Has Gone before" would be sometime between 1996 TM and 2096 TM - TM standing for the Tarbolde-Mitchell calendar. But since Mitchell said "the past couple of centuries" the date of "Where No Man Has Gone before" must be sometime between 2096 TM and 2196 TM.

The poem may have been popular only by Earthmen in the last 2 centuries, even though it was written 3 centuries ago. Most people on Canopius thought it was rubbish for the first century, then Earthmen discovered warp drive and visited Canopius to learn of the poem. Earthmen thought it was great (I still think it's rubbish). That was 2 centuries ago from the TOS timeline. This re-establishes that TOS Earth discovered warp drive about 2 centuries ago. Canopius must have been one of the first planets visited by Earth, maybe it's a planet in the Alpha Centauri System. Easy peasy.

 

[Christopher]

There's a much simpler explanation, which is that "a couple of" doesn't always mean two. That's its strict definition, yes, but people often speak informally, and I've heard "a couple" used interchangeably with "a few." And Gary Mitchell was a pretty informal person.

 

[Henoch]

And Gary Mitchell was a pretty informal person.

That's for sure. (No offense, Gary.) Me, too. Above I said "3 centuries ago" but is was about 269 years to get to 1996 from ~2265.

 

[Mytran]

MITCHELL: My love has wings. Slender, feathered things with grace in upswept curve and tapered tip. The Nightingale Woman, written by Phineas Tarbolde on the Canopius planet back in 1996. It's funny you picked that one, Doctor.
DEHNER: Why?
MITCHELL: That's one of the most passionate love sonnets of the past couple of centuries. How do you feel, Doctor?

The poem may have been popular only by Earthmen in the last 2 centuries, even though it was written 3 centuries ago. Most people on Canopius thought it was rubbish for the first century, then Earthmen discovered warp drive and visited Canopius to learn of the poem. Earthmen thought it was great (I still think it's rubbish). That was 2 centuries ago from the TOS timeline. This re-establishes that TOS Earth discovered warp drive about 2 centuries ago. Canopius must have been one of the first planets visited by Earth, maybe it's a planet in the Alpha Centauri System. Easy peasy.

Given the fickle nature of poetry's audience, this almost makes too much sense!

 

[Christopher]

That's for sure. (No offense, Gary.) Me, too. Above I said "3 centuries ago" but is was about 269 years to get to 1996 from ~2265.

269 rounded to the nearest century would indeed be 300, so you were correct there. It would be incorrect to round 269 down to 200, because it's closer to 300.

 

[Henoch]

There are other dates in WNMHGB. The tombstone Mitchell makes for Kirk says: "James R. Kirk C 1277.1 to 1313.7" or possibly the last number was 1818.7.

Good tombstone pictures are hard to find and enhancements don't help, much. Terrible engraving.

It's 99.9999 percent 1313.7. The episode starts 1312.4, and end on 1313.8. What's a stardate, is anyone's theory. I've given my theory before, but here it is again.

• James R Kirk was a joke name for the stern Kirk when Mitchell met him at Starfleet Academy. Kirk would say/write his name as "James T Kirk", but his students said it was more like "James R Kirk" as in JeRK. This is Mitchell's dig at Kirk since he befriended him back then, and now Kirk is betraying him and his long term friendship; "Jerk."
• Theory 1: C 1277.1 TO 1313.7, if it stands for years, then 36.6 stardates ago could be Kirk's age. The episode covers 1.4 stardates. How much time passes during the episode? Find probe, travel to Galaxy Barrier, get zapped, travel to Delta Vega (no warp drive), repair ship. The travel to Delta Vega would be at high relativistic velocity on impulse, so, little "ship time" may pass (hours/days), but over a year of "real time" could pass. Logs say 1312.9 on impulse and set course for Delta Vega, and later 1313.1 arrive at Delta Vega. Spock said, "There's a planet a few light days away from here. Delta Vega." Travel time 0.2 stardates or 3 real months. At the end, Kirk's log entry is 1313.8 with his hand still bandaged from his fight. Does he wait 0.1 years (over a month) to make his log and heal? If they start their trip back at again at high impulse speed for a few minutes prior to engaging warp, then maybe. Many of Kirk's friends are old men back in Starfleet. I don't believe this theory because too much time will pass over their voyages for network TV to buy.
• Theory 2: C 1277.1 TO 1313.7, "C" stands for "Captain" or the length and soon-to-be end of Kirk's captainship. In my head canon, one year is about 1000 stardates or ~2.7 stardates per day. Then 36.6 stardates ago could be 13 to 14 days. Kirk just became captain about 2 weeks prior to this episode, and this is his first mission. The episode only covers 1.4 stardates or ~12 hours. How much time passes during the episode? Find probe, travel to Galaxy Barrier, get zapped, travel to Delta Vega (no warp drive), repair ship. The travel to Delta Vega is done in hours because ...(bite tongue) impulse is faster than we think. Kirk's log entry is 1313.8 with his hand still bandaged from his fight, ~50 minutes after the fight. Many of Kirk's friends are old men back in Starfleet because he is the youngest captain in starfleet, and they are just older. This time system is not perfect, but it is easier to buy for network TV.

 

[johnnybear]

The trouble with warp speed travelling is that time moves faster on earth than it does on the ship! I think we have to ignore that fact if we are to accept that Starfleet Command doesn't change that much! Although Commodore Stone is replaced by Commodore Mendez in a short space of time to us anyway or vice versa depending on which order you accept the episodes?
JB

 

[CorporalCaptain]

There's a much simpler explanation, which is that "a couple of" doesn't always mean two. That's its strict definition, yes, but people often speak informally, and I've heard "a couple" used interchangeably with "a few."

Somebody even posted Merriam-Webster's dictionary entry for the word upthread to demonstrate this.

 

[Gabriel]

Well I watch tos in air date order. Mostly because that’s the order that my discs come in

 

[Henoch]

The trouble with warp speed travelling is that time moves faster on earth than it does on the ship! I

huh? Have you ever watched Star Trek?

 

[1001001]

Well, I have wondered if they've ever given an in-universe explanation for why time dilation doesn't occur?

I'm sure there's a technobabble, warp-bubble type answer....

 

[Christopher]

Well, I have wondered if they've ever given an in-universe explanation for why time dilation doesn't occur?

I'm sure there's a technobabble, warp-bubble type answer....

Time dilation is a consequence of Special Relativity, which as the name implies is for the special case of motion unaffected by acceleration or gravity. Warp drive is based on the broader physics of General Relativity, which addresses gravity and spacetime distortions. A ship in warp isn't technically moving at all; rather, the part of spacetime it occupies is altering its topological relationship to the rest of spacetime. It's a product of GR math rather than SR math, so time dilation doesn't arise.

Miguel Alcubierre's seminal 1994 paper that worked out the specific relativistic math that could produce a warp bubble shows how the factors cancel out so that time flow for someone inside the warp bubble is the same as it is for an outside observer no matter how fast the bubble is effectively moving. IIRC, a warp drive would even let you move at speeds below c without time dilation occurring.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Time dilation is a consequence of Special Relativity, which as the name implies is for the special case of motion unaffected by acceleration or gravity. Warp drive is based on the broader physics of General Relativity, which addresses gravity and spacetime distortions.

That's wrong, actually.

The twin paradox depends upon two test objects starting out together at rest relative to each other. One of them takes a trip that involves accelerating away from the other, then it returns back, something that involves further acceleration, and then it decelerates so that the two objects are together and at rest relative to each other again. Acceleration is very much involved in the proper treatment of the question of time dilation resulting from relative motion.

Also, acceleration is not the only cause of time dilation in relativity. Gravitation is also a cause, hence also the need for general relativity.

Time dilation is very much a result that depends upon general relativity to treat properly. Special relativity provides local transformations for relative constant motion and also the demonstration that mass and energy are equivalent. But the mathematics of bringing objects in motion into a state of being together at rest relative to each other —something necessary for the effects of time dilation to be noticed— is beyond what special relativity can treat properly. Filling in that gap was one of the reasons why general relativity was necessary in the first place.

A ship in warp isn't technically moving at all; rather, the part of spacetime it occupies is altering its topological relationship to the rest of spacetime. It's a product of GR math rather than SR math, so time dilation doesn't arise.

Miguel Alcubierre's seminal 1994 paper that worked out the specific relativistic math that could produce a warp bubble shows how the factors cancel out so that time flow for someone inside the warp bubble is the same as it is for an outside observer no matter how fast the bubble is effectively moving. IIRC, a warp drive would even let you move at speeds below c without time dilation occurring.

That theoretical science —which incidentally represents ideas that have yet to be practically demonstrated— didn't exist when Star Trek set up the rules regarding the warp drive not causing time dilation. The in-universe question of how warp drives behave is therefore an entirely different question. That said, future Trek script writers and authors will no doubt be influenced by Alcubierre's theory to flesh out and fill in that which so far has only been expressed in terms of vague and sketchy technobabble.

 

[johnnybear]

Well I watch tos in air date order. Mostly because that’s the order that my discs come in

You're just a conventionalist!

huh? Have you ever watched Star Trek?

Well of course I have and many other shows too and books which always state that earth time is much faster than ship time and the people on it! Go back to your glowing bubble!

 

[Kor]

huh? Have you ever watched Star Trek?

It's not out of the realm of possibility that this could happen sometimes in the Trek universe.

As I've pointed out before, per the original Trek writer's guide, the whole nebulous "system" of stardates is supposed to account for relativistic travel, physical position within the galaxy, etc., etc. So stuff that happened "later" from the POV of the protagonists could actually end up being logged with a lower star date than things they experienced "earlier". Conversely, it could be logged with a much, much higher stardate than what would seem to make sense from their perspective.

ETA: And this was more about flexibility and avoiding being tied-down to a stringent dating system, than actually trying to make perfectly logical sense of the whole thing for the more detail-oriented viewers.

Kor

 

[Henoch]

I'm still waiting for real evidence.... saying you "read books" and a "nebulous stardate system" doesn't give me any on screen evidence that time dilation occurs at warp speeds. Pony up to the bar, guys.

 

[BillJ]

I'm still waiting for real evidence.... saying you "read books" and a "nebulous stardate system"...

Sometimes that is all there is where TOS is concerned. Probably one of the reasons we're all still talking about it after all these years.

 

[johnnybear]

Henoch, being trapped in that sphere for all them years has left you a bit at a loss over time and space! I suggest you take over a Vulcan body and absorb his knowledge of such things! And oops..I just forgot you already did that! How'd that go for you by the way?
JB

 

[ZapBrannigan]

It's not out of the realm of possibility that this could happen sometimes in the Trek universe.

As I've pointed out before, per the original Trek writer's guide, the whole nebulous "system" of stardates is supposed to account for relativistic travel, physical position within the galaxy, etc., etc. So stuff that happened "later" from the POV of the protagonists could actually end up being logged with a lower star date than things they experienced "earlier". Conversely, it could be logged with a much, much higher stardate than what would seem to make sense from their perspective.

ETA: And this was more about flexibility and avoiding being tied-down to a stringent dating system, than actually trying to make perfectly logical sense of the whole thing for the more detail-oriented viewers.

Kor

There's a simpler in-universe possibility. Maybe Kirk is just citing the last four digits of the stardate, plus a decimal place for time of day. Analogy: you don't have to say the year or even the month when someone asks what day this is. "Everybody knows" the first six digits, let's say, of today's stardate. Thus the last four digits might tell you nothing about the overall sequence of events.

 

[Noname Given]

Well, I have wondered if they've ever given an in-universe explanation for why time dilation doesn't occur?

I'm sure there's a technobabble, warp-bubble type answer....

They never have - BUT some have assumed when you 'warp space' to travel as they do; it somehow negates/circumvents any measurable relativistic effects. <--- That said, it wouldn't account for the times they are travelling at Impulse close to the speed of light - which they often have done in many an episode.