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What Has Discovery Added To Star Trek Lore?

Fascinating quote, but they failed to actually depict it. The differences in technology are hypothetical "it might not be as advanced because X and Y" rather than anything solid (pun intended)
Perhaps they gave fans a lot more credit than they should have.

DISCO production: "It's an early version of holographic simulations. Fans are smart, they'll figure it out."
Fans: "CANON VIOLATION!!!!1111"
DISCO production: "Note to self: Make it more obvious to fans via clunky dialogue. Hey Bob, did you already write lines for Pike being weirded out by holographic communications and that he wanted it purged from the Enterprise? Good!"
 
Like I said, had 'em since Surak...

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To play the devil's advocate for a moment, though, nothing in "The Seventh" (ENT) necessarily implied that trinket was Vulcan technology. Menos could have gotten it from his wife's people (hey wait, was that even really his family at all, or was it all a ruse?) or another species he'd encountered in his travels. So I'm not sure why you'd view it as a more "convincing argument" than the above.

Taken in isolation, I suppose the examples from the "Kir'Shara" (ENT) trilogy might be argued to be supertech lost to wider Vulcan through the wars in which their "planet was devastated" and their "civilization nearly destroyed" and only rediscovered later. It was interesting that the T'Karath Sanctuary seemed to have holographic camouflage that functioned just fine in the Forge, where other contemporary Vulcan technology apparently did not, after all. (But then, maybe the sanctuary was simply tucked away in a natural pocket of calm amid the raging sea of geomagnetic instabilities. And while T'Pol and Archer were surprised by the fact that the IDIC contained a map, they didn't seem to find the holography itself particularly worthy of remark. And even if they had, the following century leading up to DSC might still have been enough time for such tech to have propagated.)

Showing the holographic projection of people in episode "The Seventh" was the closest thing visually I've seen in Enterprise that resembles the holographic communication system apparently used just about everywhere in the Discovery universe. Archer seemed more impressed with crewmen Daniels 31st century technology which seems rather antiquated compared to what we see on Discovery

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what we see on Discovery

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What we see in Discovery looks acceptable for a reboot genre or for 31st century technology but they explicitly say that it's not either one and yet it's supposed to take place in the 23rd century before TOS takes place.

To the extent that's true, it's primarily the result of more advanced technology having become more commonplace in real life, and thus available to be utilized by film and television productions. TOS looked as it did because it was created with 1960s technology, with an eye toward 1960s aesthetics, and with the intent of being shown on 1960s television screens. The same goes for TNG in the 1980s, DS9 and VGR in the 1990s, ENT in the early 2000s, and DSC today. What we see in any given artistic portrayal of the fictional Trek world tends to represent rather more the limits of what its makers were able to conceive of and realize within their allotted time and budget, using the resources they had at hand, and to the dramaturgic effect desired in context of a given plot, than it does those of what is possible to imagine in-universe.

As I know I've pointed out before in these discussions, The Making Of Star Trek documents that Roddenberry envisioned Kirk's Enterprise as being equipped with holographic accoutrements and dispensing reconstituted clothing all along:

MEN AND WOMEN ON A STARSHIP, SO LONG OUT OF CONTACT WITH EARTH AND SO LONG AWAY FROM OTHER PLANETS, TOO, WILL REQUIRE A FEELING OF FRESH AIR AND SKY AND WIND AND SCENTS. BECAUSE WE ARE, IN MANY RESPECTS, STILL ANIMALS, OUR MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL EQUILIBRIUM WILL REQUIRE THE FAMILIARITY OF THIS. MAN HAS BEEN TOO LONG A PART OF EARTH TO BE TOO LONG SEPARATED. THEREFORE WE INTEND TO BUILD A SIMULATED 'OUTDOOR' RECREATION AREA WHICH GIVES A REALISTIC FEELING OF SKY, BREEZES, PLANTS, FOUNTAINS, AND SO FORTH. ONE OF THE REASONS FOR MAKING A STARSHIP SO LARGE WOULD BE TO HAVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS...

The fourth major facility on the eighth deck level is the entertainment center. Certainly man of the future will require entertainment as much as we enjoy motion pictures and television today. Probably entertainment will be three-dimensional in nature and perhaps will go even further, in that you will sit in the room and the story will take place all around you. In other words, a sophisticated extension of holography.

This technique will also have its effect on the traditional "mail call." Instead of receiving a letter, a man can sit in the room and, via tape, actually "see" the person sending the correspondence. As the tape is projected, the images will form in the air in front of him, so he will be able to see how his child looks, what's happening to the house, and how great his grandmother looked that day. It will be just as if he were standing there with them. Having used the "projecting unit," he can then use the "photographing unit," do a similar thing himself, and send it home...

Ship's laundry bears little resemblance to its 20th century ancestor. Primarily because garments are reconvertible. It is simply easier to put a garment into the processing machine, reduce it to its original chemical fibers, take out the dirt, and then recreate a "new" garment back into its original form...

And per the Deep Space Nine Companion, when Ronald D. Moore added holo-communicators to DS9, his reasoning was as follows:

That's something I had been pushing for because I just think it's so absurd that in the twenty-fourth century they have holodeck technology that allows them to recreate Ancient Rome, but everybody talks to each other on television monitors. It's just so lame. The viewscreens have been around for over thirty years. Can't we move to something a little more interesting? But it's like pulling teeth...

From a formalism approach it doesn't make sense to make it look this way while not having it either take place in the distant future, making it a reboot, or forgetting about getting too fancy with the effects during this time period. Now the 3D display technology crewmen Daniels had no longer shows the audience that he's from the 31st century when compared to what they're using in Discovery.
 
Perhaps they gave fans a lot more credit than they should have.

DISCO production: "It's an early version of holographic simulations. Fans are smart, they'll figure it out."
Fans: "CANON VIOLATION!!!!1111"
DISCO production: "Note to self: Make it more obvious to fans via clunky dialogue. Hey Bob, did you already write lines for Pike being weirded out by holographic communications and that he wanted it purged from the Enterprise? Good!"

One criticism I have of Discovery this season is this: they shouldn't be going out of their way to appease those who won't be appeased no matter what they do. Sure, some people will be like, "Okay, I can live with that explanation", but they were never the most vocal critics. The ones who are most vocal, there's nothing you can do about them and nothing they should do.

The series is the series at this point. They made their choices and the time to have decided to do it differently was before they shot a single frame. As it is, this is the situation and at some point they have to decide, "There are fans who are with us, there are fans who aren't, and that's the way it is. February 10th, 2019," to paraphrase Walter Cronkite.
 
One criticism I have of Discovery this season is this: they shouldn't be going out of their way to appease those who won't be appeased no matter what they do. Sure, some people will be like, "Okay, I can live with that explanation", but they were never the most vocal critics. The ones who are most vocal, there's nothing you can do about them and nothing they should do.

The series is the series at this point. They made their choices and the time to have decided to do it differently was before they shot a single frame. As it is, this is the situation and at some point they have to decide, "There are fans who are with us, there are fans who aren't, and that's the way it is. February 10th, 2019," to paraphrase Walter Cronkite.

I'm okay if they can slip a line or two here and there. So long as DISCOVERY doesn't go overboard like ENTERPRISE's fourth season like the Klingon ridge explanation that required two episodes.
 
Archer seemed more impressed with crewmen Daniels 31st century technology which seems rather antiquated compared to what we see on Discovery

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what we see on Discovery

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What you've shown at the top was Daniels' database that he left behind for Archer. It wasn't supposed to have a super sophisticated display, it was just an encyclopedia of the future. It might even have been purposely dumbed down for Archer's benefit to be less technologically intimidating, and to not give away any advanced technology too early (since he was already handing out information).

This is what Daniel's holotech looks like in his Temporal Observatory.
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You're also just judging the devices visually while not taking into account that they have other functions that are vastly more advanced, like the ability to communicate and access constantly changing databases across time and space.
 
I'm okay if they can slip a line or two here and there. So long as DISCOVERY doesn't go overboard like ENTERPRISE's fourth season like the Klingon ridge explanation that required two episodes.

I admit I would like to see DSC try to explain this Klingon difference. Not a huge story arc, they could probably just show those other Klingon types without even saying anything at all.
 
From a formalism approach it doesn't make sense to make it look this way while not having it either take place in the distant future, making it a reboot, or forgetting about getting too fancy with the effects during this time period. Now the 3D display technology crewmen Daniels had no longer shows the audience that he's from the 31st century when compared to what they're using in Discovery.
This misses the conceit of what Star Trek was developed as and from, that of a future imagined from technological understanding at the time of production. These changes were inevitable.
 
What you've shown at the top was Daniels' database that he left behind for Archer. It wasn't supposed to have a super sophisticated display, it was just an encyclopedia of the future. It might even have been purposely dumbed down for Archer's benefit to be less technologically intimidating, and to not give away any advanced technology too early (since he was already handing out information).

This is what Daniel's holotech looks like in his Temporal Observatory.
40BpM0U.jpg


You're also just judging the devices visually while not taking into account that they have other functions that are vastly more advanced, like the ability to communicate and access constantly changing databases across time and space.

Visually speaking this map is just as impressive
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The future people can still travel through time, walk through walls, and have ships bigger on the inside. But visually speaking the 31st century has got nothing on Discovery.
 
Visually speaking this map is just as impressive
I0ALf9wC.gif


The future people can still travel through time, walk through walls, and have ships bigger on the inside. But visually speaking the 31st century has got nothing on Discovery.
Yes, that 5 minutes or so really showed us...very little.
 
Visually speaking this map is just as impressive
I0ALf9wC.gif


The future people can still travel through time, walk through walls, and have ships bigger on the inside. But visually speaking the 31st century has got nothing on Discovery.
Not on any level, even when you count changes in special effects technology for the productions.
 
TWOK shows us that such displays can be overlaid onto an external view:

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(Sure, it's a simulation there, yet there's no implication it isn't a normal operating function. Rather the opposite, given the nature of the scenario.)

Pretty low resolution graphics there. The text is covering the entire screen. It doesn't compare to this:

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Which one looks more advanced?

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If you look at the environments they look equally real. The klingons on the discovery holodeck were in the process of being deactivated from being shot probably. The same thing happens on 24th century holodecks

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Which one looks more advanced?

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The one that's not constrained within the area of the holo-emitter, a known vulnerability for 24th century holograms. Do they even mention holo emitters on Discovery? Holograms can appear just about anywhere on Discovery it seems like

Which one looks more advanced?

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The one with all of the fancy details on it. TNG one is just a ball with a couple ships on it.
 
So, now we must get a pixel size to prove points?

At some point in time art will yield to reality. The fact that there is the obsession over how technology is presented in the show missed the cultural context of time and pretty much ruins the art.
 
So, now we must get a pixel size to prove points?

At some point in time art will yield to reality. The fact that there is the obsession over how technology is presented in the show missed the cultural context of time and pretty much ruins the art.

In other episodes the appearances were indicators of technology advancement in time travel episodes.

Yesterday's Enterprise
GARRETT: You must have heard it. From the Klingon outpost, Narendra Three. But you didn't, did you? This Sickbay, I've never seen like it, even on a starbase. And your uniform. What ship is this, Captain?

Don't appearances generally indicate advancement?

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"Kirk to Enterprise."
I know I'm old school, but I actually miss being able to push the number buttons.
I can't tell ya how many times I've called the wrong person or a stranger, because I didn't realize I had hit the wrong number on the touchscreen.
:crazy:

I have a feeling that peoples are always gonna prefer tactile interaction with devices, even 200 years in the future.

Could be the reason why the Jelly-Bean Buttons were used on the Classic Enterprise.
What if those buttons weren't just pop-up types, what if it was also possible to employ them by pushing up, down, left and right?
Like miniature joysticks.
:techman:
 
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I know I'm old school, but I actually miss being able to push the number buttons.
I can't tell ya how many times I've called the wrong person or a stranger, because I didn't realize I had hit the wrong number on the touchscreen.
:crazy:

I have a feeling that peoples are always gonna prefer tactile interaction with devices.

Could be the reason why the Jelly-Bean Buttons were used on the Classic Enterprise.
:techman:

I also prefer tactile. I learned how to type in school. I don't need to look at the keyboard at all. But, if we replaced it with a touch screen, I'd be a slow poke, poking my way through, looking up-and-down, back-and-forth between the touch screen "keyboard" and the monitor. I'd hate it.

Does the fact that we have simple holograms now mean that reality isn't canon with Star Trek? Maybe we've been rebooted.

The world is a continuity error!
 
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