What Has Discovery Added To Star Trek Lore?

[MakeshiftPython]

It is funny how at this point it's hard for some fans to imagine characters like Spock doing something shady because they had become so beloved over the last 50 years that now it's hard to digest the idea Spock may have done something outlandish, even if he did outlandish things in the actual series and films. I wonder how many Trek fans had heart attacks seeing Spock probing into Valeris' head so forcibly that it caused her pain.

Kind of like how a decade ago when a Vulcan blatantly lied in ENTERPRISE there were fans upset because "Vulcans never lie!"... except they did before ENT. Numerous times. I think my favorite exchange about Vulcans lying was in VOYAGER with Chakotay pointing out Tuvok playing spy.

CHAKOTAY: Can I ask you to be honest with me, Lieutenant?
TUVOK: As a Vulcan, I am at all times honest, Commander.
CHAKOTAY: That's not exactly true. You lied to me when you passed yourself off as a Maquis to get on my crew.
TUVOK: I was honest to my own convictions within the defined parameters of my mission.
CHAKOTAY: You damned Vulcans and your defined parameters. That's easy for you.
TUVOK: On the contrary. The demands on a Vulcan's character are extraordinarily difficult. Do not mistake composure for ease.

 

[marsh8472]

Right...because we never saw that in Trek before...

Wait...that's in TOS era. And it was "so real," Captain Picard, that it nearly killed people.

It was canon right until GR didn't want to be so that his enlightened crew can carry on and on about how fantastic their technology is

The way that guy frames his videos, you'd think holograms didn't exist in TOS era...

Except they did.

The animated series is a bit questionable in general. But in that episode the computer was messing with the environmental systems a lot. I wonder if the holographic properties of that rec room was just an hallucination.

KIRK: Scotty, we need a work crew with power tools to open a frozen door. Have them report to, report to
(Kirk starts giggling)
SCOTT [OC]: Captain, what is it? Are you all (laughs) Are you
(As everyone else starts laughing, Spock raises an eyebrow)
KIRK: Come on, Spock. Where's that Vulcan sense of humour?
SPOCK: Hmm. Just as I thought.
AREX: Spock, what, what are you mumbling about?
SPOCK: Our air is being pumped full of nitrous oxide. Better known as laughing gas. But it's no laughing matter, especially for Vulcans.
[Rec room - arctic]

(The three trapped people also have the giggles)
UHURA: This blizzard keeps getting worse.
SULU: I know. If we don't, if we don't keep moving we're going to freeze.

Captain's log, supplemental. Somehow Spock managed to switch on our emergency air before collapsing from the effects of the gas. The fresh air quickly revived us, although it'll be exhausted in another six hours.

[Bridge]

KIRK: We must cure the computer by then or there's no telling what we'll be forced to breathe next. Scotty, how's the door coming?

 

[MakeshiftPython]

The animated series is a bit questionable in general. But in that episode the computer was messing with the environmental systems a lot. I wonder if the holographic properties of that rec room was just an hallucination.

Not likely. I go with the idea that holograms existed well in the 23rd century. In fact, we saw holographic tech being used in ENT when Reed conducted target practicing. By "Encounter at Farpoint" it became much more refined and started inadvertently developing sentient intelligence like Moriarty.

 

[marsh8472]

Not likely. I go with the idea that holograms existed well in the 23rd century. In fact, we saw holographic tech being used in ENT when Reed conducted target practicing. By "Encounter at Farpoint" it became much more refined and started inadvertently developing sentient intelligence like Moriarty.

That was just a few dots flying around in those enterprise episodes though. I could see the "holograms" in that rec room being the result of an acute psychosis brought on by the nitrious oxide or some other gas being dispensed from the environmental system by that crazy computer. The psychotropic compound the crew was exposed to in "Strange New World" might make one think they had holodecks in a cave too but what happened in that cave was hallucinations as well.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Or they were simply in an actual holodeck. We even see a holodeck console in front of the characters like how holodecks had consoles in the 24th century.

 

[fireproof78]

The animated series is a bit questionable in general. But in that episode the computer was messing with the environmental systems a lot. I wonder if the holographic properties of that rec room was just an hallucination.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. TAS is dismissed out of hand even though it was developed under the direction of GR as was TNG? Yet one is easily dismissed and the other is de facto accepted? Oh, and they nearly froze to death because of an hallucination? All of this is thin argumentation at the fact that the holodeck/rec room precedes TNG despite Picard's gushing.

Sorry, the only thing this does is continued on a predetermined narrative that holodecks are a uniquely TNG thing, when, in point of fact, they came about in TAS, and other "projections" were noted in TOS.

Also, of less questionable validity, is ENT, which demonstrates real to life holodecks (far more so in fact) than Discovery. So, the tech is known, and has existed, in some form, for a while now.

 

[marsh8472]

Let me see if I understand this correctly. TAS is dismissed out of hand even though it was developed under the direction of GR as was TNG? Yet one is easily dismissed and the other is de facto accepted? Oh, and they nearly froze to death because of an hallucination? All of this is thin argumentation at the fact that the holodeck/rec room precedes TNG despite Picard's gushing.

Sorry, the only thing this does is continued on a predetermined narrative that holodecks are a uniquely TNG thing, when, in point of fact, they came about in TAS, and other "projections" were noted in TOS.

Also, of less questionable validity, is ENT, which demonstrates real to life holodecks (far more so in fact) than Discovery. So, the tech is known, and has existed, in some form, for a while now.

You can see they were affected by the gas:

(The three trapped people also have the giggles)
UHURA: This blizzard keeps getting worse.
SULU: I know. If we don't, if we don't keep moving we're going to freeze.

The computer can modify the temperature to freeze them. We see the computer put ice and fog on an entire deck in that episode. That's different than possessing holographic technology.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Except you seem to leave this bit of dialogue out...

SULU: Well, what'll it be, a swim at the beach?
(It's a holodeck. They get a beach with waves and seagulls)
MCCOY: It is lovely, but I'm more in the mood for a nice quiet walk in the woods.
UHURA: Doctor, that sounds perfect.
SULU: Then woods it is.
(He works the panel, and they get their grass and trees.
MCCOY: Ah, now that's more like it. Shall we?

For all intents and purposes, it's a holodeck. Why are you trying to deny that?

 

[marsh8472]

Except you seem to leave this bit of dialogue out...



For all intents and purposes, it's a holodeck. Why are you trying to deny that?

Yeah hallucinations could give them that impression too.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Yeah hallucinations could give them that impression too.

So... they were all having the same exact hallucination of having a control panel to create a holographic simulations...

Why are you intent on believing that it was all a hallucination?

 

[marsh8472]

So... they were all having the same exact hallucination of having a control panel to create a holographic simulations...

Why are you intent on believing that it was all a hallucination?

It could be one person's hallucinating the others being in the same hallucination with that one person. Why use a scene that has hallucinogens in it as proof of anything?

 

[fireproof78]

The computer can modify the temperature to freeze them. We see the computer put ice and fog on an entire deck in that episode. That's different than possessing holographic technology.

Does not explain the woods, or the quick way that Sulu could change the environment.

Sorry, it doesn't hold up as anything less that a simulation or holographic tech.

 

[marsh8472]

Does not explain the woods, or the quick way that Sulu could change the environment.

Sorry, it doesn't hold up as anything less that a simulation or holographic tech.

The image of woods was an illusion. I don't see anything that contradicts the idea of that illusion being created by their own mind because of that gas they were breathing.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I’m really not understanding the need to insist that holographic simulator is not a holographic simulator.

 

[Kor]

Has it occurred to you that he might be being framed for the deaths? You know, by like a secret rogue agency, that might want to use him to find a possible threat to the security of the federation?

Tell us more about this rogue agency. Perhaps it could base its existence and mission on some obscure, seldom-cited section of the Starfleet charter or something.

Kor

 

[marsh8472]

I’m really not understanding the need to insist that holographic simulator is not a holographic simulator.

For the same reason why the hallucinations in Voyager episode "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy" led the Hierarchy to perceive Voyager as more technologically advanced than they actually were.

 

[fireproof78]

The image of woods was an illusion. I don't see anything that contradicts the idea of that illusion being created by their own mind because of that gas they were breathing.

Yeah, I'm sticking with Occam's Razor on this one. Holographic Simulator is a Holographic Simulator. Shared hallucination is a stretch to far.

 

[marsh8472]

Yeah, I'm sticking with Occam's Razor on this one. Holographic Simulator is a Holographic Simulator. Shared hallucination is a stretch to far.

We could be seeing a single person's hallucination in that scene even though there appear to be 3 people interacting doesn't mean there are. Or in DS9 episode "Emissary" where sisko was seeing a storm while dax was seeing a sunny day. Who knows

 

[DaveyNY]

From Memory Alpha....

"At least one type of recreation room was capable of holodeck-like simulation of environments. By 2270, the Enterprise was outfitted with such a room in area 39 of the ship. This rec room was capable of creating pre-programmed illusions using holographic scenes, simulated weather including wind and temperature, and sounds played from audio tapes. The scenes it created included an 18th century European hedge maze, forests, blizzards, and a beach with seagulls. Even though the scenery extended beyond the room, one would still be able to walk up to and touch the walls during a simulation. (TAS: "The Practical Joker")"

 

[Nerys Myk]

Was the gas involved described as a hallucinogen?
Were Sulu, McCoy and Uhura shown to be effected by the gas prior to entering the rec room?