Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)

[HugeLobes]

I really don't see what's so tricky about some powerful outsiders coming in and exploiting the superstitions of the locals for their own ends being depicted as some powerful outsiders coming in and exploiting the superstitions of the locals for their own ends.

Because of the overt Muslim/Middle Eastern/North African references, which they're clearly trying to get away from. You just did the exact same thing to make this seem like it wouldn't be a potential issue...

It's categorically *not* a white messiah story, it's a deliberate deconstruction of one.

It's a deconstruction of the chosen one story, but it still involves Paul acting as a white savior, regardless of how he gets there. It still involves jahids and such. Yes, it takes apart what goes into that kind of narrative, but it's still happening in the narrative.

I'm not saying this is something people should get angry about, but I'm wondering how far they'll go in removing some elements that could be controversial. Just look at the 'n word' in Huck Finn. You can argue that novel isn't racist and so on, but it doesn't mean people aren't going to get upset about it.

 

[Reverend]

Because of the overt Muslim/Middle Eastern/North African references, which they're clearly trying to get away from.

There's a fundamental assumption in that sentence without a shred of proof to back it up.

It's a deconstruction of the chosen one story, but it still involves Paul acting as a white savior, regardless of how he gets there. It still involves jahids and such. Yes, it takes apart what goes into that kind of narrative, but it's still happening in the narrative.

...And?
You appear to be labouring under the notion that depiction of a thing is intrinsically a promotion of a thing, regardless of context. Which of course is just utterly stupid.

I'm not saying this is something people should get angry about, but I'm wondering how far they'll go in removing some elements that could be controversial. Just look at the 'n word' in Huck Finn. You can argue that novel isn't racist and so on, but it doesn't mean people aren't going to get upset about it.

Villeneuve isn't shy about tackling challenging subject matter. That said I'm not sure where you got the notion that "jihad" is in any way equivalent to the N-word. That's just bizarre.

For someone that claims that 'Dune' is such an easy book to "get" you seem to really struggle with one of the fundamental themes and allegories present within the text. All those Middle Eastern influences and undertones aren't there by accident. Hell, I'm pretty sure Herbert himself explicitly said "CHOAM = OPEC". Must we draw you a diagram?

 

[The Wormhole]

No one was worried about using the word Jihad in the title of a Dune novel, no one's going to be worried about speaking it in this movie.

 

[Reverend]

It's just now occurring to me that that some people here are under the impression that Paul is the hero of this story. He's the protagonist; not necessarily the same thing. Indeed, there's an entirely valid argument to be made for Paul being the book's primary villain, not the Baron.

While he is partly the victim of outside forces, he's also the person that created a universe consuming monster that he couldn't control and is primarily motivated by a combination of revenge, hatred, a need to control & dominate, and resentment towards those that sought to control him. His blood relation to the Baron wasn't just put in there for the hell of it. It explicitly underlines the reality that he's as much of a Harkonnen as he is an Atredies.

 

[wayoung]

Paul is the Indiana Jones of Dune. Everyone thinks of him as the hero/main character but if you actually look at the plot he's irrelevant. Everything in the entire series would still have happened whether he lived or died from the moment he fought Jamis onwards. The novel expressly states this many times. He's a bystander to the story, trapped in his role by the unconscious yearnings of human evolution.

He's a direct refutation of the "great man" theory.

 

[The Wormhole]

Besides, everyone knows the real hero of the Dune franchise is Duncan Idaho. Maybe that's why they haven't announced his casting yet, build some suspense.

 

[fireproof78]

It's just now occurring to me that that some people here are under the impression that Paul is the hero of this story. He's the protagonist; not necessarily the same thing. Indeed, there's an entirely valid argument to be made for Paul being the book's primary villain, not the Baron.

Precisely so. It's amazing how often this is missed in media.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I'm wondering how the new movie(s) will tackle prescience. Show Paul and Guild navigators envisioning a multitude of possible future timelines simultaneously?

 

[Reverend]

Paul is the Indiana Jones of Dune. Everyone thinks of him as the hero/main character but if you actually look at the plot he's irrelevant. Everything in the entire series would still have happened whether he lived or died from the moment he fought Jamis onwards. The novel expressly states this many times. He's a bystander to the story, trapped in his role by the unconscious yearnings of human evolution.

Not entirely accurate.
Paul has agency in that he actively (and so far as we know, successfully) steered humanity away from the stagnation and/or extinction that would almost certainly have resulted from a free, pinwheeling jihad with no prescient hand to guide it. So the way I look at it is that his primary goal is to mitigate the impact of his very existence as much as possible.

He's a direct refutation of the "great man" theory.

Entirely accurate.

I'm wondering how the new movie(s) will tackle prescience. Show Paul and Guild navigators envisioning a multitude of possible future timelines simultaneously?

It's being directed by the same guy that did 'Arrival'. I'm sure he'll figure it out.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

IIRC, in one of the novels, Paul, through his access to other memories, realises that he will be responsible for many more human deaths than anyone in history - including long forgotten, incidental figures such as Hitler and Genghis Khan. He can succeed in mitigating the actions of his followers only slightly. He's more Thanos than Luke Skywalker.

 

[Reverend]

IIRC, in one of the novels, Paul, through his access to other memories, realises that he will be responsible for many more human deaths than anyone in history - including long forgotten, incidental figures such as Hitler and Genghis Khan. He can succeed in mitigating the actions of his followers only slightly. He's more Thanos than Luke Skywalker.

I'll always remember Stilgar's mildly impressed reaction to hearing Ghengis Khan's body count, thinking it was a personal tally; “He must’ve had formidable weaponry to kill that many, Sire. Las beams, perhaps, or …”

 

[CorporalCaptain]

IIRC, in one of the novels, Paul, through his access to other memories, realises that he will be responsible for many more human deaths than anyone in history - including long forgotten, incidental figures such as Hitler and Genghis Khan. He can succeed in mitigating the actions of his followers only slightly. He's more Thanos than Luke Skywalker.

It's from Dune Messiah, and Paul is referring to the small amount of historical data surviving from the ancient times.

Try this link: https://books.google.com/books?id=AXVUqdzi3rsC&q=Khan#v=snippet&q=Khan&f=false

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

It's from Dune Messiah, and Paul is referring to the small amount of historical data surviving from the ancient times.

Try this link: https://books.google.com/books?id=AXVUqdzi3rsC&q=Khan#v=snippet&q=Khan&f=false

It's a long time since I read Dune Messiah - probably 40 years - so it could do with a revisit in audiobook form. (I've read Dune three times and listened to the audiobook twice. I wasn't really impressed enough by any of the followup novels to read them a second time, but they're streets ahead of the P and the B novels.)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I wasn't really impressed enough by any of the followup novels to read them a second time, but they're streets ahead of the P and the B novels.

IMO, Herbert's achievement in the first volume left him with the problem of there being nowhere to go but down.

 

[John Clark]

I'm not sure how many times I've read Dune (And currently doing a reread), but I'm pretty sure I've only read Dune Messiah and Children of Dune a couple of times and no further as of yet.

(I think my father has most of them so I'll probably read his at some point).

 

[JoeZhang]

That said I'm not sure where you got the notion that "jihad" is in any way equivalent to the N-word. That's just bizarre.

Indeed - Jihad has a range of meanings and is certainly not a slur!

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The literal meaning of Jihad is struggle or effort, and it means much more than holy war.

Muslims use the word Jihad to describe three different kinds of struggle:

• A believer's internal struggle to live out the Muslim faith as well as possible
• The struggle to build a good Muslim society
• Holy war: the struggle to defend Islam, with force if necessary

Many modern writers claim that the main meaning of Jihad is the internal spiritual struggle, and this is accepted by many Muslims.

However there are so many references to Jihad as a military struggle in Islamic writings that it is incorrect to claim that the interpretation of Jihad as holy war is wrong.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/jihad_1.shtml

 

[HugeLobes]

...And? You appear to be labouring under the notion that depiction of a thing is intrinsically a promotion of a thing, regardless of context. Which of course is just utterly stupid.

Villeneuve isn't shy about tackling challenging subject matter. That said I'm not sure where you got the notion that "jihad" is in any way equivalent to the N-word. That's just bizarre.

For someone that claims that 'Dune' is such an easy book to "get" you seem to really struggle with one of the fundamental themes and allegories present within the text. All those Middle Eastern influences and undertones aren't there by accident. Hell, I'm pretty sure Herbert himself explicitly said "CHOAM = OPEC". Must we draw you a diagram?

Yes, I get Dune! I agree with this! No diagram required! I'm not talking about me. I never said Dune is promoting the white saviour narrative or a 'white man saves the day' story, just that those elements are part of the story. You keep assigning opinions to me that my words don't actually reflect.

I'm talking about people in general.

I think you've missed the point about the N-word. You read Huck Finn and it clearly has a lot of complex thoughts on race relations and slavery, but people get (for lack of a better word) 'triggered' over that one word without even bothering about the surrounding issues. It could be the least racist book in the world and people would still get antsy about the inclusion of that one word. It's become a divisive debate inside and outside the literary world.

Yes, Dune doesn't promote the white savior narrative. Yes, Jihad has lots of different meanings. But those elements are still potentially controversial. You can't really tell me that using the word 'jihad' isn't going to flare up controversy when it comes from the person who many viewers are going to identify as the hero. This isn't some follow-up book. It's a movie meant for mainstream audiences.

Again, I'm not agreeing with people who would make those arguments. I'm just say there's plenty of fuel for controversy and wondering how far the film will go towards avoiding such issues. Personally, I'd prefer if those elements were included anyway, but I'd be surprised if they actually used the word 'jihad'. To a huge portion of the public, that word is going to mean 'Muslim holy war'.

Also, I'd appreciate if you could respond without being snide.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

How about using Kampf instead of Jihad?

Ducks...

 

[fireproof78]

Hopefully this will be as much of an issue as the attempt to rename the film "The Two Towers" after September 11.