Moving Slow at Warp Speed

[Henoch]

I see no reason the Phoenix has to be limited to one warp jump. I think they jumped again back to Earth orbit and used the unused upper stage engine to land intact upright like SpaceX is doing these days.

The SpaceX boosters don't re-enter from orbit; they fall off on the way up. I looked long and hard at the screen shots of the ship and the models, and I can't see anything that looks like landing gear or legs on the Phoenix (SpaceX has four legs). I wouldn't advise landing it directly on the nozzle, either. Most likely, the nose piece separated, glided thru the atmosphere a la lifting body (note heat tiles on bottom of capsule, windows on top) to bleed off speed and fly to the landing site, and deployed a parachute for final descent near the launch complex since the guys where there for the party. The warp drive section was still in orbit. Either way, I believe it survived because of this line of dialog:
PICARD: It's a boyhood fantasy, Data. I must have seen this ship hundreds of times in the Smithsonian, but I was never able to touch it.
If Cochrane reused it, it must have durable to survive all its trials.

 

[Henoch]

That makes a lot of sense, I just have this scene in my head of Cochrane talking to a potential buyer (his original plan).

Buyer: A faster than light ship huh, That's quite a claim, can I see it?
Cochrane: The Engine section is in orbit, you can look at it through a telescope if you want.

I know he has telemetry, and all his calculations as proof, but still.

Buyer: A faster than light ship huh, That's quite a claim, can I see it?
Cochrane: The Engine section is in orbit, you can look at it through a telescope if you want.
Buyer: What's it cost?
Cochrane: Oh, that one's not for sale. I'll design and build you an even better one for a small fortune.
Buyer: How do I know it will work?
Cochrane: Go talk to the Vulcans over there.

 

[Ithekro]

"It'll make point five past light speed."

 

[David cgc]

Buyer: A faster than light ship huh, That's quite a claim, can I see it?
Cochrane: Sure. I'll take you for a test drive.
*They climb aboard a capsule, launch into orbit. Dock with the Phoenix, refuel the antimatter and other fuels. And they're ready for a second go*

“When this baby hits a hundred eighty-eight thousand miles per second, you’re going to see some serious shit.”

By the way, John Eaves drew out a diagram of the Phoenix's flight for the recent book collecting his concept art. He'd designed it for the nosecone to return, but interpreted the movie as saying the entire ship landed, so he diagrammed it out that way.

 

[InitSap]

Something relevant to this discussion lifted from Memory Alpha: "Star Trek Maps mentions the Cochrane's factor, a mathematical variable pointed out by Zefram Cochrane in 2053, in which the curvature of space the ship is traveling through causes a multiplication of the relative speed depending on the mass of nearby matter. It can be as high as a multiplication of 1500 times within the most dense interstellar dust and gas, and as little as 1 in the intergalactic void."

This would seem to imply that ships in fact will go FASTER in solar systems because high-mass objects like stars and planets obviously curve space even more than "dense interstellar dust and gas".

This would actually explain the whole "try to avoid warp in solar systems" thing, because with all the various bodies you won't know how fast you're actually going to go. So you happily calculate a route at warp 3 only to discover that you're actually much faster than "normal" interstellar warp 3 and boom, you've crashed your ship into an asteroid at high warp and you, your ship and your crew are reduced to a flaming pile of goop. Sounds like the kinda thing you might wanna avoid!

 

[blssdwlf]

This would seem to imply that ships in fact will go FASTER in solar systems because high-mass objects like stars and planets obviously curve space even more than "dense interstellar dust and gas".

That might be true for TNG, etc (anyone want to check that?) but in TOS and TOS films it was the opposite. The closer a ship at warp got to high mass objects like stars and planets the slower it's actual speed was.

 

[InitSap]

That might be true for TNG, etc (anyone want to check that?) but in TOS and TOS films it was the opposite. The closer a ship at warp got to high mass objects like stars and planets the slower it's actual speed was.

I mean, Star Trek Maps came out in 1980, so I doubt it was referencing TNG given that had yet to exist for another 7 years. Granted, it's not canon either way.

 

[Timo]

*They climb aboard a capsule, launch into orbit. Dock with the Phoenix, refuel the antimatter and other fuels. And they're ready for a second go*

And we even know what this second capsule looks like! Apparently, Cochrane could cash in on his first flight, so that the new one caters for more spectators and perhaps gives more range. Possibly to Alpha Centauri, even?

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Bonaventure_(C1-21)_model
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/early-phoenix-designs.274968/

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

Something relevant to this discussion lifted from Memory Alpha: "Star Trek Maps mentions the Cochrane's factor, a mathematical variable pointed out by Zefram Cochrane in 2053, in which the curvature of space the ship is traveling through causes a multiplication of the relative speed depending on the mass of nearby matter. It can be as high as a multiplication of 1500 times within the most dense interstellar dust and gas, and as little as 1 in the intergalactic void."

I think something is turned around here; maybe confusion with whether the Cochrane Factor is x or 1/x? However you factor it, you move slower around solar systems, real slow in gravity wells, and real fast in interstellar gaps between stars and other space phenomenon. Warp 8 with x=1500, is v = 768,000 c. That is the fastest speed I've seen, but it does mesh with the speeds in "That Which Survives" and maybe "Balance of Terror" depending on your scale of the map used on the view screen. In "That Which Survives", warp 8.4 for around 11 hours would cross almost 1000 lys. They accelerated up to warp 14.1 over 15 minutes which must have cut off a lot of time. I think a very high Cochrane Factor is rare, in this case, Spock might be riding back in the beaming hole the transported ship made in subspace; like a jet contrail in the sky. Subspace will blow it away in time, so, they had to jump on quickly before its gone.

 

[Mytran]

In "That Which Survives", warp 8.4 for around 11 hours would cross almost 1000 lys. They accelerated up to warp 14.1 over 15 minutes which must have cut off a lot of time. I think a very high Cochrane Factor is rare, in this case, Spock might be riding back in the beaming hole the transported ship made in subspace; like a jet contrail in the sky. Subspace will blow it away in time, so, they had to jump on quickly before its gone.

I've thought something almost exactly the same for years! I guess there's hope for me yet

 

[blssdwlf]

There is one thing I would probably update into my old TOS warp space chart is to remove the idea that Warp 1 = Speed of light in open space. Since we've seen that Warp speed can go well below sublight and into subsonic territory then it could be equally true that Warp 1 could go way, way faster than just the speed of light. In open space, Warp 1 could be 100x or 1000x the speed of light explaining why Kirk is comfortable with going back at Warp 1 to pick up people left on Cestus III nearly a thousand light years away in "Arena".

Also commenting on Timo's comment about gravity affecting warp drive... gravity probably isn't the only thing that can affect the ship's speed at warp... there is also the dialogue from "Squire of Gothos":

KIRK: Forward readings, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Gravimetric readings, no significant change, zero space density.
KIRK: Ahead warp factor three, Mister Sulu. Colony Beta Six wants their supplies. Let's get across this void in a hurry.​

There is also "space density" too. Is that in reference to particles in space like the solar wind or nebulas/ion storms or something more like the fabric of space?

 

[uniderth]

There is one thing I would probably update into my old TOS warp space chart is to remove the idea that Warp 1 = Speed of light in open space. Since we've seen that Warp speed can go well below sublight and into subsonic territory then it could be equally true that Warp 1 could go way, way faster than just the speed of light. In open space, Warp 1 could be 100x or 1000x the speed of light explaining why Kirk is comfortable with going back at Warp 1 to pick up people left on Cestus III nearly a thousand light years away in "Arena".

Also commenting on Timo's comment about gravity affecting warp drive... gravity probably isn't the only thing that can affect the ship's speed at warp... there is also the dialogue from "Squire of Gothos":

KIRK: Forward readings, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Gravimetric readings, no significant change, zero space density.
KIRK: Ahead warp factor three, Mister Sulu. Colony Beta Six wants their supplies. Let's get across this void in a hurry.​

There is also "space density" too. Is that in reference to particles in space like the solar wind or nebulas/ion storms or something more like the fabric of space?

Warp 1 could be associated with a 1 Cochrane warp field. What the actual speed is would depend on outside variables.

 

[Mytran]

There is one thing I would probably update into my old TOS warp space chart is to remove the idea that Warp 1 = Speed of light in open space. Since we've seen that Warp speed can go well below sublight and into subsonic territory then it could be equally true that Warp 1 could go way, way faster than just the speed of light. In open space, Warp 1 could be 100x or 1000x the speed of light explaining why Kirk is comfortable with going back at Warp 1 to pick up people left on Cestus III nearly a thousand light years away in "Arena".

Also commenting on Timo's comment about gravity affecting warp drive... gravity probably isn't the only thing that can affect the ship's speed at warp... there is also the dialogue from "Squire of Gothos":

KIRK: Forward readings, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Gravimetric readings, no significant change, zero space density.
KIRK: Ahead warp factor three, Mister Sulu. Colony Beta Six wants their supplies. Let's get across this void in a hurry.​

There is also "space density" too. Is that in reference to particles in space like the solar wind or nebulas/ion storms or something more like the fabric of space?

Good point about Spock's observation in TSOG, I had never connected the dots to that episode, for some reason!

It's interesting that Kirk correlates "Warp 3" as being in a "hurry". Perhaps because this area of space provides vast levels of acceleration and Warp 3 is sufficient to meet the deadline? Or are the local space conditions dangerous for some reason and Warp 3 is the top SAFE speed they can do right now?

 

[Henoch]

Good point about Spock's observation in TSOG, I had never connected the dots to that episode, for some reason!

It's interesting that Kirk correlates "Warp 3" as being in a "hurry". Perhaps because this area of space provides vast levels of acceleration and Warp 3 is sufficient to meet the deadline? Or are the local space conditions dangerous for some reason and Warp 3 is the top SAFE speed they can do right now?

I vote for the former. Why push the ship on a milk run?

 

[blssdwlf]

It's interesting that Kirk correlates "Warp 3" as being in a "hurry". Perhaps because this area of space provides vast levels of acceleration and Warp 3 is sufficient to meet the deadline? Or are the local space conditions dangerous for some reason and Warp 3 is the top SAFE speed they can do right now?

I'm thinking the former as well. Although it's probably more than vast acceleration but also higher actual speed with any given warp factor, IMHO.

 

[Mytran]

I'm thinking the former as well. Although it's probably more than vast acceleration but also higher actual speed with any given warp factor, IMHO.

That's actually what I meant but had particularly poor handling of the English language when I wrote it!

 

[Henoch]

In open space, Warp 1 could be 100x or 1000x the speed of light explaining why Kirk is comfortable with going back at Warp 1 to pick up people left on Cestus III nearly a thousand light years away in "Arena".

Also commenting on Timo's comment about gravity affecting warp drive... gravity probably isn't the only thing that can affect the ship's speed at warp... there is also the dialogue from "Squire of Gothos":
KIRK: Forward readings, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Gravimetric readings, no significant change, zero space density.
KIRK: Ahead warp factor three, Mister Sulu. Colony Beta Six wants their supplies. Let's get across this void in a hurry.

Math: v=x(WF^3)c, if x=100, then at warp 3, v= 2700 c or v=0.3 lys/hr or v=7.4 lys/day.

In 6 days, Enterprise will travel d=44.4 lys. Distance sounds reasonable; a 44 lys void.

If x=10; d=4.4 lys. That's only the distance to the next solar system! Too small a void. If x=1000; d=444 lys. That's ~1/3 of Federation space! Too big a void.

On-line research on zero space density:

• The actual density of hydrogen as it exist in interstellar space is on the average of about 1 atom per cubic centimeter. In the extremes, as low as 0.1 atom per cubic centimeter has been found in the space between the spiral arms and as high as 1000 atoms per cubic centimeter are known to exist near the galactic core.
• The reason they get a positive energy density is very interesting. Thanks to the redshifts of distant galaxies and quasars, we've known for a long time that the universe is expanding. The new data shows something surprising: this expansion is speeding up. Ordinary matter can only make the expansion slow down, since gravity attracts - at least for ordinary matter. It follows that if the vacuum has positive energy density, the expansion of the universe will tend to speed up! This is what people see. And, vacuum energy is currently the most plausible explanation known for what's going on.

Conclusion: So, as the space density or vacuum energy approaches zero because the universe is expanding, maybe warp drive benefits from this zero point energy with an increased Cochrane factor. Additionally, if x is directly related to the inverse of the number of atoms in a given space, then x can vary from 1 to 10,000 in interstellar space. No reason that x can reduce below 1 in very high atom density (and gravity that offsets the universal expansion rate) as found near stars/suns. At absolute zero, the Cochrane factor will hit a ceiling limit. What it is, is up to us.

 

[Henoch]

If x=1000; d=444 lys. That's ~1/3 of Federation space! Too big a void.

I may be rethinking this part. If the "void" is crossing the spiral arm void say to the Perseus Arm, then 400-500 lys distance might be about right. "Void. Void. What is void?" in this episode.

 

[Mytran]

How would that fit with Gothos being 900 LY from Earth?

 

[Ithekro]

In which direction though? 900 LY, but which way?