Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico

[Bad Thoughts]

I'm not saying Picard is without any flaws but overall he was a good captain.

And I would agree. I would prefer Picard, in the same way I would prefer an obstetrician over an ER physician: I would prefer the warmth of the former, and I would probably think that the former's position showed a longer, more accomplished career, but I would not hold any brusqueness against the latter.

In the end, I don't think we have enough information to make more than a cursory judgement between Picard and Jellico. The writers wanted to use the change in personelle to explore an area that "Gene's rules' rarely permitted: interpersonal tension. The crew's reactions are probably more extreme than normal: Troi, Crusher and Riker display (what is best described as) pissiness before Jellico even steps aboard the Enterprise. Conversely, Jellico has a skillset tailor made for the situation, but he's put in a position to put his talents to use in the shortest amount of time. He walks into an emergency situation and takes over a staff predisposed to doubt the necessity not only of his actions, but his very presence.

ETA: I think it is worth pointing out that the Cardassians were still a new faction when the episode originally aired. Up to this point, they have been shown to be imperialistic and sneaky, but the Cardassians as the most belligerent species was something that was only starting to develop. Starting with Chain of Command and going into DS9, the Cardassians are the species (at least in the AQ) that will most likely use warfare as a broad political tool. With hindsight, it may seem logical to assume the worst from them.

 

[JesterFace]

I think it is worth pointing out that the Cardassians were still a new faction when the episode originally aired. Up to this point, they have been shown to be imperialistic and sneaky, but the Cardassians as the most belligerent species was something that was only starting to develop.

Although, according to 'The Wounded' there had been a war between Federation and Cardassia.
A war that had gone unnoticed during the first 3 and a ½ years of TNG.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

A war that had gone unnoticed during the first 3 and a ½ years of TNG.

Another war from which Picard was conspicuously absent?

You are correct, but that war was not really fleshed out at the time, and easily dismissed. Indeed, it could have been but a series of skirmishes rather than an outright conflict for all the attention it received.

 

[JesterFace]

Indeed, it could have been but a series of skirmishes rather than an outright conflict for all the attention it received.

Enterprise-D disabled a Cardassian ship with few shots in the beginning of 'The Wounded' so perhaps it wasn't much of a war, just Cardassians declaring a war, firing few shots and trying to claim some areas, who knows.

 

[Gabriel]

Enterprise-D disabled a Cardassian ship with few shots in the beginning of 'The Wounded' so perhaps it wasn't much of a war, just Cardassians declaring a war, firing few shots and trying to claim some areas, who knows.

But remember the galaxy class was not in service for a very long timeat that point. Possible It’s possible that it didn’t feature that much in the war And by those scenes from DS9 the older ship designs seem to be on match with the cardassians.

 

[Makarov]

Maybe Netchayev was right and the destruction of the Borg is much more important than the moral discomfort of one self-righteous captain.

Remember what Garak said on a similar matter:

"And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."

If that's the case then maybe Pressman was right and they should have developed cloaking technology and kept it in their sleeve for the when the time comes that they'd need it

 

[Discofan]

If that's the case then maybe Pressman was right and they should have developed cloaking technology and kept it in their sleeve for the when the time comes that they'd need it

True. I never understood why they gave this huge advantage to the lying Romulans who tried to kill them many times, even once when the Enterprise had just rescued them!!! (The Next Phase)

 

[Gabriel]

True. I never understood why they gave this huge advantage to the lying Romulans who tried to kill them many times, even once when the Enterprise had just rescued them!!! (The Next Phase)

Right. I mean good to Keep the peace but why the hell give away a valuable area of defense. I guess you could say the Federation is more honorable and they don’t go sneaking around. But then again sisko proved the worth of the cloaking device to the Federation even if it was only a one cloak deal. Other frankly I still can’t believe even after the Romulans signedsigned a nonaggression pact with the dominion that they allowed Sisko to keep the cloak. Although Pressman was a little wrong in violating the treaty, but he did the wrong thing for the right reasons.

 

[Discofan]

Right. Been keeping the penis OK but why the hell give away a valuable area of defense. I guess you could say the Federation is more honorable and they don’t go sneaking around. But then again sisko proved the worth of the cloaking device to the Federation even if it was only a one cloak deal. Other frankly I still can’t believe even after the Romulans signedsigned a nonaggression pact with the dominion that they allowed Sisko to keep the cloak. Although Pressman was a little wrong in violating the treaty, but he did the wrong thing for the right reasons.

I don't understand this kind of treaty (which I don't believe has an equivalent in the real world). It's either both are allowed to use the cloak or neither. But a treaty that allows one side to do something and forbids it to the other side is just insane!

 

[Gabriel]

I don't understand this kind of treaty (which I don't believe has an equivalent in the real world). It's either both are allowed to use the cloak or neither. But a treaty that allows one side to do something and forbids it to the other side is just insane!

Right. Although apparently in return for the Federation not using cloaking the Romulans were force behind the neutral zone. Although that does really make it a good treaty. But then again nobody ever said the Federation was a very smart country. I mean there’s no point in starting nonsense wars Bach sometimes you have to use your teeth and not talk everything out. Also and not give into treaties that are prone To cause problems. The Cardassian treaty also comes in tomorrow Also I meant keeping the peace. My phone likes to change my words When I use dictation. because I’m too lazy to type it all.

 

[Noname Given]

I don't understand this kind of treaty (which I don't believe has an equivalent in the real world). It's either both are allowed to use the cloak or neither. But a treaty that allows one side to do something and forbids it to the other side is just insane!

This type of treating exists in the Real World: Example: Most of the countries that now have Nuclear weapons make treaties and concede assistance, material and favored nation status in some form for the pledge that a country will not develop nuclear weapon technology.

 

[Arpy]

True. I never understood why they gave this huge advantage to the lying Romulans who tried to kill them many times, even once when the Enterprise had just rescued them!!! (The Next Phase)

Because it’s not as simple as that?

If the cloak were enough of an advantage, it wouldn’t have made it into the treaty.

If the phase cloak were enough of an advantage, it would have been developed further — by the side that invented it, or the side that could have themselves invented it or at least stolen it.

Further, this is a tv show. The point is not the new super duper technology introduced as a tool to tell a tale but the finer points being discussed. What if it weren’t a phase cloak but just a new slightly better cloak? Pressman shouldn’t have been playing with that, regardless his personal beliefs.

Here’s a question, why isn’t Star Trek Online and everything set after NEM using phase cloaks, slipstream drive, and quantum torpedoes exclusively? No outmoded cloaks, warp speed, or phasers at all? Why aren’t Dominion transporters everywhere transporting across sectors? And soliton waves around every corner?

Could it be because they represent “the future” and we can’t get rid of everything recognizable in Trek because it’d then be unrecognizable? What kind of stories are you going to tell when everyone’s got a portable phase cloak under their thumbnail and is invisible and walking through walls all the time?

It’s a tv show.

 

[Discofan]

This type of treating exists in the Real World: Example: Most of the countries that now have Nuclear weapons make treaties and concede assistance, material and favored nation status in some form for the pledge that a country will not develop nuclear weapon technology.

Those are not treaties, those are sheer exercises of force, in which the strong dictates his terms to the weak for the only reason that he's strong. If it's in those terms that has been written this so-called treaty then it means that the Romulans are kicking the Federation's butt, very badly!

 

[JesterFace]

I guess you could say the Federation is more honorable and they don’t go sneaking around.

I could be wrong about this but I think I remember reading something like Gene Roddenberry saying that Federation is about exploring, not sneaking around. That was at least part of the reason Feds didn't have cloaking tech.

If Federation did have cloaking technology, that might make many stories boring.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I could be wrong about this but I think I remember reading something like Gene Roddenberry saying that Federation is about exploring, not sneaking around. That was at least part of the reason Feds didn't have cloaking tech.

Not all of Gene's ideas were good ideas.

From my perspective, having each race given some distinct technological advantages helps uncomplicate stories. It really doesn't matter much if Starfleet can't cloak (at least not often) because as the viewer, I see them all the time. I would have to have lots of frames of empty space. And if other factions can cloak, they can appear out of nowhere.

 

[Gabriel]

Because it’s not as simple as that?

If the cloak were enough of an advantage, it wouldn’t have made it into the treaty.

If the phase cloak were enough of an advantage, it would have been developed further — by the side that invented it, or the side that could have themselves invented it or at least stolen it.

Further, this is a tv show. The point is not the new super duper technology introduced as a tool to tell a tale but the finer points being discussed. What if it weren’t a phase cloak but just a new slightly better cloak? Pressman shouldn’t have been playing with that, regardless his personal beliefs.

Here’s a question, why isn’t Star Trek Online and everything set after NEM using phase cloaks, slipstream drive, and quantum torpedoes exclusively? No outmoded cloaks, warp speed, or phasers at all? Why aren’t Dominion transporters everywhere transporting across sectors? And soliton waves around every corner?

Could it be because they represent “the future” and we can’t get rid of everything recognizable in Trek because it’d then be unrecognizable? What kind of stories are you going to tell when everyone’s got a portable phase cloak under their thumbnail and is invisible and walking through walls all the time?

It’s a tv show.

We know will the out of universe answer the in universe answer is the real question. Also the Federation basically for bidding itself from using a valuable tool of defense Is just stupid. And it’s very stupid considering the fact they are trusting the romance words that they will stay behind the neutral zone. And while the Federation track cloak ships ok in TNG before I’m sure it was a lot harder, that means they have to take the Romulan’s word.

 

[Gabriel]

Those are not treaties, those are sheer exercises of force, in which the strong dictates his terms to the weak for the only reason that he's strong. If it's in those terms that has been written this so-called treaty then it means that the Romulans are kicking the Federation's butt, very badly!

the strong bossing around the weak. It’s a big part of life. Also don’t forget some of those we countries may not have good morals. But anyway It’s possible the Federation and the Romulan are somehow equal. And remember a treaty is a compromise which means nobody gets everything they want. And plus even if this treaty favors a Romulans more the Federation threat is normal for the federation. The feds has not always been smart when it comes to defense sometimes They talk too much. I am no way saying they should be war mongers but sometimes A show of force is better than words

 

[Arpy]

We know will the out of universe answer the in universe answer is the real question. Also the Federation basically for bidding itself from using a valuable tool of defense Is just stupid. And it’s very stupid considering the fact they are trusting the romance words that they will stay behind the neutral zone. And while the Federation track cloak ships ok in TNG before I’m sure it was a lot harder, that means they have to take the Romulan’s word.

Or it's not what you think it is? Have you read the treaty and know what concessions were made on each side?

And the cloak isn't an endgame super-weapon or the Romulans or Klingons, or the Romulans and Klingons (they've allied in the past), would have conquered the Federation long earlier.

Further, if the Romulans ever do go to war against the Federation, the treaty is voided and the Feds can cloak the hell out of their ships, as they did the E-D in "All Good Things..."

 

[Gabriel]

Or it's not what you think it is? Have you read the treaty and know what concessions were made on each side?

And the cloak isn't an endgame super-weapon or the Romulans or Klingons, or the Romulans and Klingons (they've allied in the past), would have conquered the Federation long earlier.

Further, if the Romulans ever do go to war against the Federation, the treaty is voided and the Feds can cloak the hell out of their ships, as they did the E-D in "All Good Things..."

We know though canon sources say that the treaty of algeron (the one that is referenced in the episode) reinforces the neutral zone and forbids the federation from developing cloaks. Also. I never said the cloak was a super weapon but rather a good part of defense. And it is a not so good treaty for the federation because as soon as the hostilities start the Romulans can use there cloak to the best of its ability while the federation can use cloaks I doubt many captain know how to best use it and the federation still has to built good cloaks. And test them. So you see it will be a while after the war started before starfleet can “cloak the hell out of their ships” that’s not a very good treaty for the federation. But what do expect from people who seem to want peace what ever the cost.

 

[Arpy]

Not all of Gene's ideas were good ideas.

From my perspective, having each race given some distinct technological advantages helps uncomplicate stories. It really doesn't matter much if Starfleet can't cloak (at least not often) because as the viewer, I see them all the time. I would have to have lots of frames of empty space. And if other factions can cloak, they can appear out of nowhere.

Not all of Gene's ideas were bad ideas either.

I've always been iffy on the idea of the Federation not being able to cloak. I preferred to think of it as a technology that they just haven't been able to develop well enough. I do think they should be able to cloak their ships to simple visual observation (it would help whenever the Enterprise or Voyager were over Earth in the past, and we know they can cloak observation outposts and individuals as they did in INS and "Who Watches the Watchers..."), but I think it should be harder for them against sensors. But they chose to say they were barred for treaty reasons. Okay. Whatever.

Anyway, the point is, if they can cloak, why not turn it on and forget it? Oh, we get to see them "all the time"? Only because they haven't cloaked. The simplest cloak (against the human eye) could be extremely easy, and maybe all starships should be invisible all the time.

Hell, the idea that ships can't fire while cloaked too is little more than a dramatic tool, and we saw one in TUC that could fire when cloaked. What, they haven't worked that out in 90 years?

I think that you have to permit that there are "reasons" for things in-universe to account for reasons out of universe.

 

[DonIago]

I like that people will criticize the Federation for signing a treaty in which they agreed not to pursue cloaking technology, even though by all indications that treaty was by and large successful.

 

[Arpy]

Ohh and your always right.

Uhhh, what?

Is this because I stopped talking with you about Jellico?

We know though canon sources say that the treaty of algeron (the one that is referenced in the episode) reinforces the neutral zone and forbids the federation from developing cloaks.

And what else? We don't know what else was in there. We do know that it's worked really well.

And it is a not so good treaty for the federation because as soon as the hostilities start the Romulans can use there cloak to the best of its ability while the federation can use cloaks I doubt many captain know how to best use it and the federation still has to built good cloaks. And test them. So you see it will be a while after the war started before starfleet can “cloak the hell out of their ships” that’s not a very good treaty for the federation.

Maybe. But I imagine that was worked out in the original calculus when they were making the treaty. Maybe the concessions the Romulans made would also take a while to even out, leaving neither side at a clear advantage that would make the treaty a non-starter.

But what do expect from people who seem to want peace what ever the cost.

This is where we fundamentally disagree. You think the Federation are idiots strategically because they're also good people. I think they're amazing because they're both not at all idiots strategically (what they compromised on cloak they gained equally elsewhere) and they're also good people.

 

[Gabriel]

I like that people will criticize the Federation for signing a treaty in which they agreed not to pursue cloaking technology, even though by all indications that treaty was by and large successful.

Ehh, how successful ? I mean pressman is not a good guy, but he is right on one thing that treaty has basically prevented the federation from a exploring a good area of defense. The cloak is in now way perfect or infallible but could help starfleet in sticky situations.