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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x02 - "New Eden"

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The Berg/Harberts tenure only runs for a few more episodes, I wonder if the season will take a hard turn then.

John E. Price: "Before the season I was talking to someone on the show and they warned me what they were going to do to Pike. [religious nut?] This is a very heavy first step in that direction. I was hoping the guy was lying."

I hope not because shoving one point of view down a viewers throat (or reader, listener) makes for bad art. The Disco team said they wanted to examine faith vs reason and I hope they do giving both views an equal hearing and suggest viewers have to make up their own minds in the end.

I came away from Season one satisfied that the "bad guys/girls" Klingon point of view was treated with at least some sympathy and the "good guys/girls" of the Federation were not always as good as they would like to believe they are.
 
Gave it a 7, which ties it at the lowest ranked episode of the show.
They could have at least saved Jacob, who was the sanest of the bunch, who instead is now doomed to live with the knowledge he has amidst this religious weirdos.
Positives: I like Tilly's imaginary friend
Man, I was really hard on the show last night.

I'll try to give it another chance in the evening, when I'm not that tired.

otoh, I still don't like the Religous-Fundamentalist-Captain-Pike thing that seems to develop here
 
Everyone saying "this is like the klassik Trek!" because it's the away mission to the kooky colony,

but in almost every other kooky colony episode, don't we get to know the colonists more? We got to know proto-science colonist guy a bit, but he was the rebel, and we didn't get to know the other colonists and their outlook as a point of comparison to him. But I guess that would've taken time away from Tilly learning to talk to ghosts.

And that's where we going with this, Tilly is infected with Spore Magick, so can talk to ghosts. And the Spore Magick will bring back Wilson Cruz, who is trapped in Ghost Land.

Also, if Joann is tagging along because of her Luddite specialty, shouldn't she be given a few sentences to say about stuff?

Oh well, I like Anson Mount, but I'm starting to think Pike might be hitting the martinis too hard again.

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Edit: I was being too sassy, so I will say something nice- having the secret science battery bolster the colonists' churchly faith was faintly clever.
 
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otoh, I still don't like the Religous-Fundamentalist-Captain-Pike thing that seems to develop here

That's not what I saw. I saw someone who wasn't willing to dismiss such things as completely out of hand and accepted the possibilities inherent in such things and respected the beliefs of others. Star Trek has certainly seen its fair share of beings that could have been considered gods. Literally, in Apollo's case. Hell, didn't the Organians show up on Enterprise? That's not to say that he doesn't have some religious beliefs, but that hardly equals "religious fundamentalist".
 
Some people have tried to retcon the Eugenics Wars as being part of World War III or the actual war itself because of Spock's lines in TOS that the Eugenics Wars were "your last so-called World War," but TNG and ENT confirmed that the two conflicts were separate armed confrontations decades apart.

Though not intentional at the time, you could now interpret the dialogue in "Space Seed" as McCoy correcting Spock, and the latter stands corrected with "of course".

SPOCK: Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.

But I understand there are fans that aren't too crazy about the idea of Spock being incorrect about facts from time to time. He's half-human after all. The only thing that would be a bit off about that bit of dialogue is that Bones would RELISH correcting Spock on a factoid such as getting Eugenics War and WWIII mixed up!
 
Comments looking positive, I will be watching the episode a bit later.

Interesting to see the comments on Tilly, I don't really have a problem with her at all, she is just one of those people that will always be dialled up to 11 and a perfect counter for Burnham.

If Pike keeps getting good reviews I don't see how CBS can ignore a Pike/Enterprise prequel leading into Kirk/Enterprise.
 
Just to clarify, I'm not a big TOS person, so the blame for my confusion over the Eugenics Wars and the Trek universe's WWIII being the same conflict is on me, not the franchise.
 
Just to clarify, I'm not a big TOS person, so the blame for my confusion over the Eugenics Wars and the Trek universe's WWIII being the same conflict is on me, not the franchise.

Trek's pre-ENT era is pretty messy. Before Cochrane's warp ship was definitively stated as the turning point for humanity, DS9 implied it with the Bell riots in "Past Tense".
 
Weirdly, at first, I wasn't very comfortable with Michael coming close to outright calling the New Eden residents' beliefs irrational (maybe I was just afraid of how they'd react), but then I felt more perturbed that Pike was so determined to preserve their ignorance, even going so far as to basically gaslight poor Jacob. I did ultimately like the episode, though; the colony of transplants from Earth and Prime Directive quandary felt very "Star Treky"; I just came close to having a more negative opinion of the story until the scene were Pike let Jacob know that he wasn't crazy.

I think I pretty much agree with this. I think this episode might call for a rewatch on my part to be honest. There were definitely bits where I felt this uncomfortable kind of feeling that you describe where I was worried that it might turn 'preachy' one way or the other in a very unsubtle and unsatisfying way, but in the end I think they handled it pretty well. You can tell that both Burnham and Pike have valid arguments to present but you can also tell likewise that both arguments have flaws. Its a genuine moral dilemma in a very star trekky way but one that treats the audience intelligently and as capable of coming to their own conclusions about the merits of each position without forcing a moral down our throats in a way that a Berman era prime directive story would have (What's that Enterprise episode where Phlox basically condemns an entire species to die because of the absolute morality of the prime directive which doesn't even exist yet?). I much prefer the implication here that morality is actually a bit messy and there aren't always hard and fast rules and regulations that tell you what to do with absolute certainty; there's problems with Pike's faith in the prime directive as much as with Burnham's certainty that the colonist's beliefs are totally irrational.

The thematic stuff I think shows real potential; just as the Federation have almost god-like technology compared to the colonists, so the 'angels' have apparently god-like technology compared to the Federation; its just a matter of relative technological advancement. But it also doesn't necessarily reject religious belief as superstitious nonsense either, instead making it clear that both religion and science are both aspects of the human desire to explain the world in which we live, albeit both imperfectly. I had worried that this season might pit science and faith against one another in a heavy handed kind of way, but this gives me hope that it might be treated a bit more subtly as a 'both/and' rather than an 'either/or'. I really hope the handling of this faith/science theme continues with this kind of intelligence and nuance as the series progresses and doesn't go backwards from here.

Another interesting aspect of this episode was the interplay between the science/faith theme and the prime directive morality/non-interference stuff, with its overtones of scientific objectivism on the one hand and compassionate humanism on the other. I wonder if this will come to play an important part of the arc plot as the season progresses? Might the mycelial network be a kind of threshold for entry into the next level of cosmic citizenship just as warp is for the federation? Is the mysterious signal some kind of first contact test by the red angels? Do they have their own kind of general order one or non-interference directive? Obviously they have the ability to save species they believe to be in danger of extinction and don't mind a certain amount of exposure, arguably just as much as the discovery crew demonstrate themselves. The angels don't seem to stick around to be worshipped either, so presumably this isn't their motivation at the very least, unlike Apollo and some of the other godlike aliens from TOS.

I'm really digging the return to semi-episodic adventures, a very TOS flavoured transplanted human colony, more ensemble action from the cast, but with a modern sensibility and serialised characterisation and a slow burn arc that ties nicely into the story of the week. This season so far (and I know, its only two episodes but still) is reminding me of DS9 in a very good way, and it definitely feels more like star trek than last season but without retreating to late nineties nostalgia as a crutch. I'm becoming cautiously optimistic hahah! Mount is absolutely killing it as the wise but quippy Pike, I'm kinda hoping they keep him on next year to be honest, canon be damned ;) Some of the dialogue is still a bit cringe and info-dumpy, and Tilley's definitely a lot in a way which... I can't really tell if I like or not? But I'm appreciating the increased number of little character moments between the tech-the-tech to plot-the-plot scenes.

I'm still not totally convinced by the spore drive, particularly given the 23rd century setting, just because it seems like such a god-mode technology, but maybe that's what they're going for and at least they're having Pike hang a lampshade on the ridiculous magical mushroom engine. I just can't help hearing the voice of Kathryn Janeway in the back of my head screaming at the f*ckers who classified the tech that could have got her ship home in about 20 seconds every time they fire the thing up.

This turned into a wall of text but tl;dr: noice. much star trek.
 
Man, I was really hard on the show last night.

I'll try to give it another chance in the evening, when I'm not that tired.

otoh, I still don't like the Religous-Fundamentalist-Captain-Pike thing that seems to develop here

I'm not sure how Pike's respect for others' belief systems and ability to maintain a fair perspective is equated to "religious fundamentalism ". Care to explain that one? Seems like what Star Trek SHOULD be if it really practices what it preaches, rather than shoving an ideology down people's throats.
 
I believe as others have said they specifically setup that the mycelium network is linked to the dead. I had forgotten Tilly has a spore in her ... it must have been activated by the power surge from the dark matter.

Question is - if the network can pull people in at death are they going to find a way to re-animate them (doctor and her friend) or is the doctor just going to remain a vision from the network.
 
otoh, I still don't like the Religous-Fundamentalist-Captain-Pike thing that seems to develop here
I don't think Pike will be a religious fundamentalist. I think he does have a good understanding of religion, but that might only be due to his father, who was a teacher of comparative religion.

Pike himself might not be religious, but he can approach religion with an understanding and respect for why others might be.
 
I don't think Pike will be a religious fundamentalist. I think he does have a good understanding of religion, but that might only be due to his father, who was a teacher of comparative religion.

Pike himself might not be religious, but he can approach religion with an understanding and respect for why others might be.

Exactly. For example, I am an atheist but I have a big interest in religion, specifically religious history. I know a lot about the Bible, but it doesn't mean I have faith in any of it.
 
I don't think Pike will be a religious fundamentalist. I think he does have a good understanding of religion, but that might only be due to his father, who was a teacher of comparative religion.

Pike himself might not be religious, but he can approach religion with an understanding and respect for why others might be.

I'm betting he will have some element of faith to his character outside of a mere understanding. I don't know why. I just feel they're setting this up this way.
 
I'm betting he will have some element of faith to his character outside of a mere understanding. I don't know why. I just feel they're setting this up this way.
He may, but I don't think it would be to the extent of Fundamentalism or even to the extent that he would "think lesser" of people who are not religious. He has been presented so far as a very rational person.

If he is religious, I have a feeling he will be the type of person who can still see both sides -- i.e., understand and respect why some people would be religious, but also understand and respect why people would not be religious.

It may be a personal thing to him and not affect how he views others.
 
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I'm betting he will have some element of faith to his character outside of a mere understanding. I don't know why. I just feel they're setting this up this way.

He may, but I don't think it would be to the extent of Fundamentalism or even to the extent that he would "think lesser" of people who are not religious. He has been presented so far as a very rational person.

If he is religious, I have a feeling he will be the type of person who can still see both sides -- i.e., understand and respect why some people would be religious, but also understand and respect why people would not be religious.

It may be a personal thing to him and not affect how he views others.

And that's exactly how it should be respectfully represented.
 
He may, but I don't think it would be to the extent of Fundamentalism or even to the extent that he would "think lesser" of people who are not religious. He has been presented so far as a very rational person.

If he is religious, I have a feeling he will be the type of person who can still see both sides -- i.e., understand and respect why some people would be religious, but also understand and respect why people would not be religious.

It may be a personal thing to him and not affect how he views others.

I was raised Catholic. My wife is a Methodist minister. My dad is an atheist. Needless to say, faith is an interesting topic at Thanksgiving dinner. I believe in God but I fully stand by the idea that it doing so is a personal choice. I may pray for you but I don't necessarily think you're going to go to hell if you don't believe. I mean, I don't even know if I believe in hell. Ultimately, your beliefs are your own. I think that people of faith are oftentimes given a bad rap by the fundamentalists. Most of us aren't like that. In fact, I fully believe that the Bible is imperfect as it is written by man and translation errors have cropped up over time and that the story told therein gives plenty of room for science to exist. I absolutely believe that evolution is real and that the story told in Genesis is a way for people of the time that it was written to understand. A myth. A fable (you once heard in childhood). I guess my point is, I have a foot in both science and religion.

I think if they chose to go this way, the more measured way to show Pike as a man of faith is for him to be of the same mindset. They didn't present Pike in this episode as a Bible thumper and I agree, doing so would be a huge mistake.
 
And that's exactly how it should be respectfully represented.
Yes. If the writers want to explore "Faith v. Reason", they would need characters who approach the issue from different sides in order to move that story along.

Burnham might be on the "Science is my Religion" side of the argument, and maybe tend towards being dismissive of the reasons people might be religious. Pike might be there so the writers can have someone who rationally approaches it from the side of religion, but also be able to respect both Burnham's view and the religious view.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Pike needs to be religious; maybe he is, but I don't think it's that relevant one way or the other. What is relevant is that Pike needs to have the tools to be able to give counterpoint to Burnham's side with a rational argument for why some people might be religious and why Burnham's side of the argument should respect a personal decision to be religious, rather than being dismissive of them.

The writers had Pike mention that his father was a scholar of comparative religion for a reason. I think the writers want Pike to be able to lead this point/counterpoint story of Faith versus Science, and want to show that he has the background in order to understand both sides well enough to be rational about it.

Having said that, I'm sure the Red Angels will have a scientific explanation. However, that does not necessarily diminish Pike's potential argument for respecting a peoples' faith.
 
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