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Would Star Trek Discovery have benefited from an episodic format?

Here's my thing-if you want episodic that's fine. But better have someone on continuity in order to track character development and some sort of progression otherwise it will lose me fairly quickly.

As much as I respect the other opinions around here, the thing that makes a show unwatchable for me is when things feel like they don't matter. Even sitcoms like MASH or "Two Broke Girls" managed to demonstrate this in some way. Star Trek is mixed at best, but I'll grant Discovery this-they at least tried.

One of the things I disliked most about Voyager was that even though they had a few good characters like The Doctor and Seven, and understood their value as characters, they didn't care enough about continuity to set them up in any kind of coherent arc. They would have them both take halting steps towards being more "human" and then backtrack once again if the "plot of the week" required it. Basically the characters were entirely subservient to - not even the plot - but the deadlines of the show. The writers were so focused on sharting out one tepid episode after another that they didn't even care to look back at earlier episodes that in some cases they themselves had written!
 
One of the things I disliked most about Voyager was that even though they had a few good characters like The Doctor and Seven, and understood their value as characters, they didn't care enough about continuity to set them up in any kind of coherent arc. They would have them both take halting steps towards being more "human" and then backtrack once again if the "plot of the week" required it. Basically the characters were entirely subservient to - not even the plot - but the deadlines of the show. The writers were so focused on sharting out one tepid episode after another that they didn't even care to look back at earlier episodes that in some cases they themselves had written!
Yup. I recall one that stuck to me, even when I first saw it, but more so upon seeing a review of it. I think it is called "Real Life" (or something like it) and it plays like a sitcom right until everyone is like "you need to experience tragedy!" and have a child die. First of all-I don't believe any parent would actually wish that upon someone as it is one of the most heart wrenching descriptions of an experience I have heard, and thankfully have never experienced.

Secondly, since when do people but in to other people's holodeck time? Tom Paris has zero room to talk and really doesn't need to be the go to expert on family life.

Finally, as you point out, it never comes up again-never. And that's where the episodic format completely fails for me. I don't need perfect continuity but if you are going to torture characters at least make it matter.
 
Yup. I recall one that stuck to me, even when I first saw it, but more so upon seeing a review of it. I think it is called "Real Life" (or something like it) and it plays like a sitcom right until everyone is like "you need to experience tragedy!" and have a child die. First of all-I don't believe any parent would actually wish that upon someone as it is one of the most heart wrenching descriptions of an experience I have heard, and thankfully have never experienced.

Oh, God. I haven't seen "Real Life" since high school. Talk about one extreme to the other. They should've rounded that off with some sort of middle ground.

I did have a couple of friends who were kind of like those Klingons, though, when I was in high school, but they never brought knives to the house. My parents didn't want me hanging out with them at all. They listened to heavy metal, got into trouble, and I thought they were cool. (Flash-forward 20 years later and not so much... ) One time I had one of them over and then my mother pulled up in the driveway and he had to run out through the backyard and over the fence. Good times. :p

But back to "Real Life", killing off the daughter was so unnecessary. Some parents have to lose a child, but that's not a "normal" experience. And I thought the whole point of the simulation was to show the Doctor a normal family.
 
See I think Discovery is kinda of episodic in a way. Each episode deals with a problem they have to address even it's a part 2 or a part 3, etc. Not every Discovery episode ends in a cliffhanger leading into the next episode. What Discovery doesn't do and I think this is what is tripping some people up is not at all hit the reset button. There is clearly continuity from episode to episode. If someone leaves an episode pissed at someone they're going to feel that way the next episode because it's likely the next day or the next week and things aren't forgotten and need to be dealt with. In that way the show is completely serialized.

When people say Discovery should be episodic or benefit from it what I interpret that to be is Discovery should be like TNG or Voyager and hit the reset button each episode. To that I say HELL NO. Discovery isn't some long uninterrupted story. There are breaks and jumps in time. The season long arc doesn't mean bottle episode can't be done or side-trips can't be taken. They were in season 1. What Discovery should never ever do is make it seem like something doesn't matter. I don't want to ever see the episode structure that the TNG era had minus the later part of DS9 and last two seasons of Enterprise again. Each episode and the actions of the characters should matter and carry over to the next episode. There should be no throw away episodes and I feel there was none in Discovery and I want season 2 to be the same.
 
There was a right or wrong way to do Godfather 2. If Michael Corleone goes back to the army and never does jack with the Mafia there is a riot.

There was a right or wrong way to do James Bond. You cannot have him be a hippie anarchist. A punk rocker with spiky hair, a man with a disfigured ugly face, a man who speaks with a thickk Russian accent.

Your examples have absolutely nothing to do with my argument.

Godfather was a singular movie, not a 50-year franchise spanning 5 different live action series, an animated series, and 13 movies.

James Bond is a singular character, not a 50-year franchise spanning 5 different live action series, an animated series, and 13 movies...with approximately 35 different primary characters.

Give me a break.
 
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The problem with the serialized format is that there are no standalone episodes to develop secondary characters like Rhys, Owosekun, Detmer, etc. Heck they don't even develop the main characters. I had to look up some of their names on Memory Alpha.

All of the other series have had standalone episodes focusing on individual characters. From Deep Space Nine, for example:
Odo - A Man Alone, A Simple Investigation
O'Brien - Captive Pursuit, Whispers, Tribunal, Hard Time, The Assignment, Honor Among Thieves
Quark - The Nagus, Family Business, Business As Usual
Dax - Invasive Procedures, Equilibrium, Rejoined
Bashir - Distant Voices, Doctor Bashir I Presume, Statistical Probabilities, Inquisition, Chrysalis
Garak - The Wire
Kira - Second Skin
Worf - Rules of Engagement
Jake - Nor The Battle To The Strong

The people you've mentioned are not even really secondary characters. They're basically background extras with some intriguing visual appeal and a few lines.

DS9 season 1 was episodic, broadcast in syndication, and had a lot more episodes to fart around with. Totally different storytelling format.

If you combine the ENT S4 approach with the DSC S1 approach (whoever wants to scream "Fanwank times Fanwank!" I'm going to cut you off at the pass, because that's not where I'm going with this), you can have an overall arc with mini-arcs within it. Each part a different piece of the main puzzle. And said part could be as many episodes as it needs to be before moving on to the next group. That would work in a story where they're on a quest and going from place to place along the way.

I wonder if the Fanwank Patrol TM hated TNG for bringing on McCoy, Scotty, Sarek, Spock, and Kirk as much as they hate DSC for bringing on Spock, Sarek, Pike, and Number One? I wonder if the "small universe" complaints were as heavy when you realize that somehow, the only historical Starfleet figures the Enterprise-D crew ever really meet are members of the original Enterprise crew (or Morgan Bateson). That seems rather improbable. Shit, at least DSC takes place during the same timeframe as TOS, and is deliberately telling backstory of TOS and some of those characters. TNG was set 80 years later and they basically had TOS along for the ride quite a bit.
 
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The people you've mentioned are not even really secondary characters. They're basically background extras with some intriguing visual appeal and a few lines.

DS9 season 1 was episodic, broadcast in syndication, and had a lot more episodes to fart around with. Totally different storytelling format.



I wonder if the Fanwank Patrol TM hated TNG for bringing on McCoy, Scotty, Sarek, Spock, and Kirk as much as they hate DSC for bringing on Spock, Sarek, Pike, and Number One? I wonder if the "small universe" complaints were as heavy when you realize that somehow, the only historical Starfleet figures the Enterprise-D crew ever really meet are members of the original Enterprise crew (or Morgan Bateson). That seems rather improbable. Shit, at least DSC takes place during the same timeframe as TOS, and is deliberately telling backstory of TOS and some of those characters. TNG was set 80 years later and they basically had TOS along for the ride quite a bit.
I think Scotty's was the most painful.
 
James Bond is a singular character, not a 50-year franchise spanning 5 different live action series, an animated series, and 13 movies.

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The problem with the serialized format is that there are no standalone episodes to develop secondary characters like Rhys, Owosekun, Detmer, etc. Heck they don't even develop the main characters. I had to look up some of their names on Memory Alpha.

How long did it take TNG to delve deeply into Garvey's character? Did TOS get around to really fleshing out Dr M'Benga with that touching episode that explains how he knows Vulcan anatomy so well?
DSC has had 1 season, with less episodes than previous seasons got, and seems to be expected to have accomplished everything no other Trek series every managed to do, within that time frame.

DISCO hasn't focused on one sole character, apart from Burnhan, though the Short Trek's have done so for Tilly and Saru, and arguably Stamets had his episode within the series as well. Owosekun, Detmer, and Random Communications Officer Guy are simply not that important yet to get that kind of focus. Maybe they will be, one day. Maybe Kyle, Chapel, and Masters will also. Moving away from episodic format doesn't preclude any of this, or does being a serialized show not allow for departures from the main plot-line. They've done that already.

Here's my thing-if you want episodic that's fine. But better have someone on continuity in order to track character development and some sort of progression otherwise it will lose me fairly quickly.

As much as I respect the other opinions around here, the thing that makes a show unwatchable for me is when things feel like they don't matter. Even sitcoms like MASH or "Two Broke Girls" managed to demonstrate this in some way. Star Trek is mixed at best, but I'll grant Discovery this-they at least tried.
Good example. M*A*S*H managed to have more skin in the game than VOY.
 
Your examples have absolutely nothing to do with my argument.

Godfather was a singular movie, not a 50-year franchise spanning 5 different live action series, an animated series, and 13 movies.

James Bond is a singular character, not a 50-year franchise spanning 5 different live action series, an animated series, and 13 movies...with approximately 35 different primary characters.

Give me a break.
Godfather is a prized and treasured thing and was just like Trek.

How old do you think James Bond is as a movie franchise?
 
In terms of being seen as a special qoute unqoute holy franchise.

Okay, gotcha. That's the best and worst thing about the franchise at the same time.

I've been a fan for almost 30 years, and I like Discovery just fine. More than I do any of the middle Star Trek series, I might add. On the other hand, another person who's been a fan as long as I have might think, "This undermines everything about the franchise I've held dear for almost 30 years!"

I can watch those earlier series any time I want. So they're not going anywhere. In the worst case scenario, if I end up not liking any series after Discovery, it won't change a thing about the series I do like. And unlike others (not you), I wouldn't haunt the forums of the series I don't like long after I would've stopped watching, just to see if I can get a rise out of anyone careless enough to take the bait.
 
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Okay, gotcha. That's the best and worst thing about the franchise at the same time.

I've been a fan for almost 30 years, and I like Discovery just fine. More than I do any of the middle Star Trek series, I might add. On the other hand, another person who's been a fan as long as I have might think, "This undermines everything about the franchise I've held dear for almost 30 years!"

I can watch those earlier series any time I want. So they're not going anywhere. In the worst case sceanrio, if I end up not liking any series after Discovery, it won't change a thing about the series I do like. And unlike others (not you), I wouldn't haunt the forums of the series I don't like long after I would've stopped watching, just to see if I can get a rise out of anyone careless enough to take the bait.
I posted the OP into the General Trek subforum but it was moved here.
 
I think it's absolutely fair to say that VOY and early ENT were failures as shows over a much longer run than DIS had to date, insofar as they didn't try and add to Trek. That is why I don't think DIS is the worst Trek, even though the writing flaws were glaring at times. The show was always well acted, expertly directed, and the visuals (aside from the weirdly grainy ship shots which looked straight out of a early aughts video game) looked amazing. I never felt outright bored by Discovery, as I did by Voyager. Exasperated with the choices made some times, but not bored.



Aside from finally having an explicitly LGBT character, I don't see what Discovery did better than earlier shows. I mean, looping back to DS9 again, O'Brien was the only white male human main cast member on the show. And even on LGBT issues, the show got about a half dozen references past the "Berman homophobic filter" without getting caught.



I think people are a little too trigger happy to blame all of the problems of Season 1 on Fuller. I admit I haven't seen any of his post-Trek work, but he was a cut above most of the Voyager writing staff when he was young, and seemed to get Trek. I really wonder (albeit with little evidence) if he's succumbed to some addictive behavior in recent years, since he was essentially fired from three shows within a period of less than two years.



I think her arc worked great up through the end of Act 1. She transitioned from being shattered by her own failure into being a confident member of the team, and from a pariah to accepted. However, there was basically no arc in Act 2 - it was Burnham being emotionally tortured as she was betrayed in turn by Ash and Lorca, then irrationally latching onto MU Georgiou - basically showing that she had not made substantial character growth over the season.



I concur. The editing in the speech seemed really, really weird. I do wonder if they wanted to have either a darker ending or to stretch the Klingon War into the second season, and CBS told them to put the kibosh on it. They had no plan B, so they engaged in pure asspull.



My own two cents are they should have toned down the epicness of the season. There's no reason to have Burnham blamed for the start of the Klingon War. Or to have her former captain be one of the most decorated in the Federation. Or to then put her on a ship which is instrumental in defeating the Klingons.

Basically take all of that out, and make Burnham an XO who made a really bad decision, got her captain killed, and have her dishonorably discharged (not imprisoned). But as the Klingon War heats up, Starfleet needs more warm bodies, and she's recruited back into the force. GIven CBS didn't want to spring for the big budget needed for a large cast to pull off an epic show, this tighter focus - the POV of a single crew on a not-so-amazing ship - would have allowed Burnham's personal story of redemption to come to the fore. It would also stop canon nerds from complaining about why we never heard of this awesomsauce woman before - because she was just another Starfleet officer doing the best she could.

Ultimately, the stakes that make us enjoy stories are personal ones. Get the characters right, and people will follow them anywhere. Get the characters wrong, and even spectacle of universe-destroying scope won't be enough.

When it comes to Discovery’s take on diversity, we’ve never seen a black woman as prominent (including Uhura even) on a Trek series/movie as Burnham, so that does make the show stand out. (It would be great if they did something though to root her more in a culturally black experience to demonstrate the difference, though the visual makes a statement on its own. A sci-fi series where the main character is a black woman. The character the audience is supposed to identify with, follow on their journey, watch their lives and loves, victories, and defeats, etc.; Off the top of my head I can’t think of another sci-fi series that has been led by a black woman). After Season 1 alone, Burnham is the most developed black female character in Trek’s history.


Also, while as you’ve mentioned, there have been some exploration, perhaps on the edges, when it comes to LGBT issues/characters, there has never been as prominent a homosexual character as Stamets and we have yet to have seen as much exploration of an LGBT relationship as Discovery has depicted. Perhaps this is just me, but when it comes to Georgiou, Cornwell, and Tilly, as well as Burnham, it feels like Discovery is making female characters more integral to the show in ways that feel different-to me at least-than some of the previous Treks. I also think Discovery has taken some steps to make their crew feel even more inclusive, in terms of background players, than I’ve noticed in previous Treks.


I see Act 2 as when Burnham starts to grasp the lessons she’s learned since the Battle of the Binary Stars. This is where they demonstrate her growth. I can see why she attached to Mirror Georgiou. I mean she’s got to be feeling very guilty about Prime Georgiou and she’s lacking a mother figure, mentor, and friend. (One thing that I did catch while watching the show was that Amanda and Burnham seemed to have a good relationship, so I don’t know why Georgiou would need to be a substitute mother like the show set up. If Soval had been the foster parent instead of Sarek I think this would’ve made more sense, IMO. I go more into why I think Soval and/or T’Pol would work better instead of Sarek later on). I think Burnham throughout has struggled to try to reconcile her human emotions with her Vulcan upbringing, so she doesn’t have ‘normal’ reactions at times to things. It reminds me a little of when Data in Generations, though not played for broad laughs like that. Burnham has struggled, is struggling with her divided halves, but her brilliance and ability to get the job done make her valuable to Starfleet so they have been willing to work with her.


It’s not my intention to blame or unload on Fuller. I would like to see what his plans were though, and how much made it to the screen. I wonder how much of the things I took issue with came from him or came from the people who replaced him.


I think you have some good ideas for how Discovery should have gone. I especially like the idea of the ship not being that great. Though if it was up to me, I would keep Burnham more central to the Klingon War. I think it was gutsy to make a lead character, on a Trek show of all things, be the cause of a massive war. (Though one can argue that Burnham was right since T’Kuvma’s plans were already gaining steam).


I’m okay with Georgiou being one of the best captains, but I wish there had been more people on that list. I wish Garth, Garrovick, Bryce Shumar, Shran, Erika Hernandez, and if they had been allowed to use Bad Robot characters: Edison, Robau, and perhaps Marcus Alexander. I think that was a missed opportunity for even more Easter Eggs but also to include some names we had never heard of, and more alien captains as well. Perhaps if they had just had Saru have the computer read off names instead of showing them, while also having some on the screen, it would have worked better.


With Burnham, I wasn’t a fan of her being the best student in the Vulcan Science Academy, or whatever, but I would’ve been fine if she had been one of the better students there, or had graduated at the top of Starfleet Academy, or was just a very gifted person who had problems fitting in anywhere due to her past trauma and any emotional turmoil of having to adapt to living on Vulcan. Her centrality to a war fans had never heard of before, and no other show, especially TOS, had ever brought up, was going to rile many fans, though I think even more so the connection to Sarek and Spock. I still wish they had had Soval or T’Pol as her foster parent. There’s a lot of room to play around there, and it doesn’t fundamentally alter the character they envisioned. Sarek, Amanda, and the Spock connection are hotter, but because of that, that is bound to provoke fans more. I don’t think people would have been as up in arms about Soval or T’Pol, their future is unwritten-canonically-unlike Sarek and Spock. I have to wonder if the writers thought that using Sarek would appeal to fans, but I think the opposite happened, at least online.
 
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Godfather is a prized and treasured thing and was just like Trek.

How old do you think James Bond is as a movie franchise?

Okay, gotcha. That's the best and worst thing about the franchise at the same time.

I've been a fan for almost 30 years, and I like Discovery just fine. More than I do any of the middle Star Trek series, I might add. On the other hand, another person who's been a fan as long as I have might think, "This undermines everything about the franchise I've held dear for almost 30 years!"

I can watch those earlier series any time I want. So they're not going anywhere. In the worst case sceanrio, if I end up not liking any series after Discovery, it won't change a thing about the series I do like. And unlike others (not you), I wouldn't haunt the forums of the series I don't like long after I would've stopped watching, just to see if I can get a rise out of anyone careless enough to take the bait.

@Lord Garth got my point here. The Godfather is a singular movie. It's not the same. It's like saying a Ferrari is just like Star Trek because they're both special things people like. To quote Kirk, "That's a little vague, Spock"

The Godfather is an soap-operatic crime drama and James Bond is a spy action/intrigue franchise.

Star Trek is a science fiction franchise with over 35 primary characters that has been successfully presented as all of the following:

Action/adventure
Morality play
Ethical dilemma
Dark revenge tale
Political thriller
Allegory
Comedy
Romance
Hard sci-fi
Family drama
Wartime drama
Horror/suspense

You really can't compare it to any other property because for over 50 years it's been successfully presented as so many different things and it resonates with many different people for many different reasons. Therefore, claiming (which you did not, btw) that someone can steadfastly declare "what the essence of this whole thing is" is a bit ridiculous.
 
DSC has had 1 season, with less episodes than previous seasons got, and seems to be expected to have accomplished everything no other Trek series every managed to do, within that time frame.

100% agree with this statement, and I will declare that despite all this, DSC S1 still manages to be the best inaugural season of Star Trek since TOS S1.

As far as I'm concerned, that's really saying something.
 
When people say Discovery should be episodic or benefit from it what I interpret that to be is Discovery should be like TNG or Voyager and hit the reset button each episode. To that I say HELL NO. Discovery isn't some long uninterrupted story. There are breaks and jumps in time. The season long arc doesn't mean bottle episode can't be done or side-trips can't be taken. They were in season 1. What Discovery should never ever do is make it seem like something doesn't matter. I don't want to ever see the episode structure that the TNG era had minus the later part of DS9 and last two seasons of Enterprise again. Each episode and the actions of the characters should matter and carry over to the next episode. There should be no throw away episodes and I feel there was none in Discovery and I want season 2 to be the same.

Did you even bother to read the replies? Not a single person has said that in this thread. Some people have argued that maybe a lower level of semi-serialization would have been helpful (say DS9 level) but no one has praised the reset button.

I wonder if the Fanwank Patrol TM hated TNG for bringing on McCoy, Scotty, Sarek, Spock, and Kirk as much as they hate DSC for bringing on Spock, Sarek, Pike, and Number One? I wonder if the "small universe" complaints were as heavy when you realize that somehow, the only historical Starfleet figures the Enterprise-D crew ever really meet are members of the original Enterprise crew (or Morgan Bateson). That seems rather improbable. Shit, at least DSC takes place during the same timeframe as TOS, and is deliberately telling backstory of TOS and some of those characters. TNG was set 80 years later and they basically had TOS along for the ride quite a bit.

Aside from having McCoy in the pilot, TNG was very conscious not to be heavily referential regarding TOS until late in its third season. They wanted to establish the show as its own thing before falling back on TOS nostalgia.
 
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